Originally posted by Saxman
Bullchit.
2Cs can force a HO shot AT WILL. They can do a full reverse within about a hundred yards at pretty much ANY speed and hardly shed a bit of E. I've plain lost count of how many times I've been closing on one from dead-6 at +300mph and 600yds distance in a Hog, only to have the bastige do a complete 180 and feed me 20mm before I can reach D400 and fire.
Your numbers are way off. A Hurri can't reverse with you 100 yds or even 600 yds behind if you've got that kind of closure. 1000 yds, maybe. More typical would be 1500.
Also, he's not "Hoing" you, he's neutralizing you. You need to understand more about ACM. ACM really boils down to being offensive, defensive or neutral. When a Hurri (or any other aircraft for that matter) is being attacked from behind his wingline he's defensive and he has three objectives. First, survive. Second, neutralize. Third become offensive.
A break turn lets him survive. If there is sufficient separation and the he has the e, a break turn to take the attacker 180 out neutralizes the attack. This is basic, pure, ACM. Nothing fancy, nothing underhanded, it's how things work. If you (the attacker) are smart you'll be prepared to maneuver to maintain the offensive, if you're not smart then you're going to let him drive the fight. If the target is good then he can easily go directly from defensive to offensive with two moves. A break turn followed by a roll refersal or a barrel roll onto the attacker's six going from defensive to offensive. In a typical attack on a Hurri, guys will BnZ. Fine. When under that sort of attack, I'll mix it up. A low-g break turn, followed by a high-g break to 180 out, to a break followed by a reversal. Maybe throw in a vertical break if the guy is dropping from directly above. One thing I won't do is accept staying defensive if I can do anything about it, including taking the wanking little BnZer 180 out.
Bottom line is a break turn into an attacker to take him 180 out is what every fighter pilot will and should do if he can. It's not a "ho", it's basic ACM. What a bunch of bananas want is for the target to do what he's supposed to do....make it easy for an attacker to get a kill and it's just plain whinning and an acknowledgement that the target is smarter than he is.
Another point that I've made before. What exactly is a HO? There are numerous reasons why two aircraft can pass 180 out, whether they fire or not is irrelevant. That doesn't make it a "HO" in the sense that most people complain about. The "HOer" IMHO is the guy who boresights you from 6k yds out and holds his trigger down to and through the merge, counting on his bullets to clear the path, with no attempt at all to avoid or maneuver. This is not the same as defensive maneuvering to neutralize an opponent or simply coming out of a turn with an unobserved bandit on your nose. It's also not the same as going beak to beak with an attempted snapshot at the pass. This is intentional, put the pipper on and hold the trigger down. The problem with it is that it's unrealistic. No RL pilot will do this because at best it's a 50/50 proposition. Also, and quite tellingly to me, is you will see this all the time from LAs, 109s and 190s. Why? Sure, they have great firepower but I'm guessing a bigger reason is that the over-the-nose visibility is so bad with these planes that the pilot can't hit a deflection shot and can only get a kill from dead six or a HO. Good pilots in these planes have learned to shoot deflection and can do it quite well but typical dweebs that pick them just because they're fast and have big guns don't have a clue.
Mace
