Author Topic: Pearl Harbor Setup?  (Read 416 times)

Offline blur

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« on: November 12, 2001, 07:50:00 AM »
Information has been surfacing which makes it appear that the Pearl Harbor attack was a setup to draw an unwilling populace into another world war.

As a youngster reading the various books about this attack I always had the sneaking suspicion that something was “fishy”.

Now if these allegations prove correct some disturbing questions will have to be asked.
 http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Offline Serapis

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2001, 10:31:00 AM »
Not too many footnotes or original research there, and some of those footnpotes seem to be out of context (drawing conclusions that the authors of those works didn't draw), and awful lot of conjecture and opinion, and nothing really new.

Try a real source on the subject, like: At Dawn We Slept - The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor. Nearly 900 pages of exhaustive research (a bit dry, but truly comprehensive)show how Pearl Harbor was largely a failure by both Japan and the US to understand the opponent, as well as failures by the military bureaucracies in both Washington and Hawaii.

As for the "conspiracy theory"... Well, it got its roots in the Congressional investigation (1945-46) of Short and Kimmel. Good old partisan politics, as well as an inability to believe we could really screw up that badly (sad but true), was played by a few Congressmen to taint the Democrats. Shows how little Washington has changed over the years.  The books' afterward: "Pearl Harbor never Dies" goes into some detail refuting many of the revisionist arguments.

Charon

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]

Offline Toad

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2001, 01:42:00 PM »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Serapis

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2001, 01:52:00 PM »
Good site Toad. The link is bad though and you might want to edit out the second "http://" in the URL.

Charon

Offline easymo

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2001, 02:10:00 PM »
Charon.  Very good reply.

Offline Toad

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2001, 02:19:00 PM »
Thx, Charon. First time I used the URL button. Will remember to clear it next time.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline R4M

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2001, 07:21:00 AM »
Blur, the site you linked is full of toejam. It has lots of inconsistences and false proofs. Not to mention that all the de-coded "intercepted" japanese transmissions mentioned in that page were intercepted in 1941 but not decoded until AFTER the war IIRC.

I had quite a heated discussion with a fellow spanish guy who blindly believed in that piece of crap in form of an HTML document. Truth is that the guy was an usual reader of David Irving's books, so what would you expect  :rolleyes:

BTW I found an almost identic page between Rense.com links. And I dont need to say the kind of jerk Rense is, isnt it? (take a look at his webpage to get a great laugh).

Summing it up: page full of toejam for credule/misinformed people. Two hours of true research will make you understand the kind of crap that site is.

Offline Maverick

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2001, 03:15:00 PM »
Ram,
 
Take it easy dude! You know blur ONLY gets the hot scoop from the National Enquirer. He's still waiting for the latest Elvis sighting as well.  :D

 
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Offline R4M

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2001, 03:52:00 PM »
Maverick, I dont think blur is the one to be blamed to believe in what that website says. The information presented there as "proof" is even manipulated, badly used, or even plainly false; still is presented in a seemengly direct and informative fashion, so its VERY probable that the casual reader tends to believe what is explained in that crap site.


So I dont blame Blur for believin what that crappage says. First time I read that thing, it also made me think twice; even while I take myself as someone more or less literate on WWII. Most information of that webpage was very easily recognizeable as false, but some of the lies hidden in that page were way more subtle, and only some research would show the inconsistences of the arguments.

For instance, and as an example of what can be done by intelligent lying:

That page explains that USA had broken the Japanese naval cyphers in December '41, so almost all the messages between the combined fleet and Japan were well known by Roosevelt and all the US High staff. And this is simply false, those messages were intercempted by US intelligence but weren't decyphered until after the war.

 However, that page says that the decoded messages were found,decoded, in the naval intelligence archives (true, because indeed they were there, but decoded AFTER the war, not BEFORE). And based on that "finding", and mixing it with absolute lies (that the US had broken the Japanese naval cyphers before the war, when that is not true), the author tells us that Roosevelt was fully aware of what was said in those messages. The best liers are the ones who base some of their lies in true information; this is a good example.

A casual reader wont notice this LIE. In fact he will tend to believe it,even more because is widely known that the US intelligence had broken the Ambassy cyphers (Purple code, I think it was called); someone could even think that Purple had something to do with the navy codes- wich of course is not right; and anyway if the diplomatic cyphers were penetrated, why not the naval?. All false, but people tend to follow that line of argument.

 The Japanese navy cyphers were absolutely secure by late'41. But if someone comes up and says that they had been penetrated by US intelligence (basing it in the misguiding fact of the decyphered transmissions found in the US archives) then we have a very subtle and believable lie, one that most people wont notice.


Well, all that babbling to say that Blur is not to be blamed for believing that piece of crap. Many people tend to believe it. It is a very intelligent lie, full of toejam, yes, but a well told one nonetheless   :)

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

Offline blur

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2001, 06:34:00 PM »
You know I'm getting to the point where I don't know whom to believe anymore.

Just this morning Elvis came by and said it was raining out...

I still had to take a peek out the window.  :p

Offline Toad

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2001, 07:55:00 PM »
Ah, it's easy for you Blur, admit it.


You believe anyone that's got something bad to say about the USA.

  :p   :p   :p   :p   :p
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline mrfish

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2001, 09:20:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blur:
[QB] I always had the sneaking suspicion that something was “fishy”.



for the record, i had nothing to do with this

Offline Hangtime

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Pearl Harbor Setup?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
Quote
"Where's the beef?"  

Where's Clara?

hehehhe.. those were GREAT commecials; BTW.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.