Why I care about religion

[JB88]

step into the light.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

My name is Michael, this is my creed.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger unto those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

[moot]

The way I understood the spaghetti monster was as an illustration of the absurdity of pretending to know for sure anything that's in the realm of irrationality.  Anthropomorphism of god (rain gods, god hates studmuffins or doesn't, prayer does or doesn't help, etc).  Just because a ton of folklore has accumulated around the myths of god (old grandma BS sort of stuff) doesn't invalidate the philosophical notion of god.

What's ludicrous about something beyond the reach of your understanding?  I don't picture god as an all powerful being that created everything and watches everything, or as anything else.  I don't picture it at all.  You could say I dismiss it out of hand, but not because I think it's true or false or unlikely or not, but because being beyond what I can understand and therefore predict, it's by principle a non-factor.
It's as elementary as 2+2=4 that if something is beyond your understanding, it's unpredictable in any way.  God isn't just beyond your understanding like 21st century tech is to cavemen, it's infinite.
So "god" is in fact as ludicrous to our scale of thinking as changing into a rocket etc.  That it makes no sense is more proof of the ludicrous dissimilarity between us and it.

It does not take faith to believe it does not exist.

Belief is faith.  
I'm not splitting semantic hairs or trying to get into a last-word argument here, the matter's really clear:  God cannot be proven or disproven (where is your proof?  No proof = no certainty), and yet (in your own words) you believe.  You're positive god is inexistant, with ridicule or disbelief (I think the formal name is argument from disbelief) as justification.  Look it up, it's not a valid argument.

Would you take it seriously if someone answered your post with only "I don't believe that/it doesn't vibe with my instincts, so it just can't be true"?

[lazs2]

I think that on this one, skyrock reflects my views fairly well.

I would chop up the post a little more tho.

lazs

[moot]

Me too..
Man could somehow do justice to "God's greatness" with his little ideas   Yeah, right.

[Hap]

Religion: The service and worship of God.

[Furious]

Originally posted by moot
..but because being beyond what I can understand and therefore predict, it's by principle a non-factor.
It's as elementary as 2+2=4 that if something is beyond your understanding, it's unpredictable in any way.  God isn't just beyond your understanding like 21st century tech is to cavemen, it's infinite....
So "god" is in fact as ludicrous to our scale of thinking as changing into a rocket etc.  That it makes no sense is more proof of the ludicrous dissimilarity between us and it...

...but it is you that has assigned this "god" an infinite unknowability.  That doesn't make it so.  

..,So "god" is in fact as ludicrous to our scale of thinking as changing into a rocket etc.  That it makes no sense is more proof of the ludicrous dissimilarity between us and it...

We are dealing with facts now?

...God cannot be proven or disproven (where is your proof? No proof = no certainty),...

That is just a form of a negative proof argument.


...and my "belief" was not that there is no god, but that it does not require faith to believe there is no god.  I am merely using the word "belief" to convey an idea, not assign it some metaphysical power.  So, off into semantics?  Yes.  

Also, where did I state that I believe god to be non-existent?

[Samiam]

Originally posted by cav58d
I am a Lutheran, and as I get older and older my retention rate to church on Sunday's is definately dropping, but religion is a major part of my life...Im not a serial killer because im scared about going to prison and being executed...Im not a serial killer, because its where I believe I would go if I were executed for such a crime...

Wow. haven't read whole thread to see of someone has already responded to this, but I say you are completely morally bankrupt if the only reason you don't go on a killing spree is because you fear punishment by God.

I'll take an atheist who is moral and kind to his fellow man because of a strong sense of humanity and empathy over a devout Christian who, were it not for some words in a book telling him not to would take a hatchet to my head.

It paints a pretty sad picture of Christians if you really say "I want eternal life for myself and so I choose not to kill you."

And a pretty strong picture of atheists who say "It's not about me, I turn to dust either way, but I want you to have a long life and so I could not comprehend of killing you."

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Furious
...and my "belief" was not that there is no god, but that it does not require faith to believe there is no god.

[semantics]

Belief in the unknowable and unproven is the definition of faith.

As non-existance cannot be proven, the belief in the non-existance of something is therefore faith.

The disbelief in something is not faith as there is no belief.

Atheism = the belief that there is no God (faith)

Agnosticism = the non belief in the existance of God (No faith)

[/semantics]

[Tachus]

Originally posted by Samiam
Wow. haven't read whole thread to see of someone has already responded to this, but I say you are completely morally bankrupt if the only reason you don't go on a killing spree is because you fear punishment by God.

I'll take an atheist who is moral and kind to his fellow man because of a strong sense of humanity and empathy over a devout Christian who, were it not for some words in a book telling him not to would take a hatchet to my head.

It paints a pretty sad picture of Christians if you really say "I want eternal life for myself and so I choose not to kill you."

And a pretty strong picture of atheists who say "It's not about me, I turn to dust either way, but I want you to have a long life and so I could not comprehend of killing you."

Actually, the purpose of the law (in the Bible) is to reveal "Sin" so we know what is "Right", and to reveal that no matter how good a person might think they are, they still fall short of perfection. (Which is God's standard.)

The proper understanding of how the law applies to a Christian is best understood like this. I love my wife, so I don't commit adultery. It makes no difference  to me whether it's against the law or not. (So I do not refrain from adultery because it's against the law, but because I love my wife.) In fact think how your wife would feel, if you said, don't worry dear, I'll never be unfaithful, because it's against the law.
The same "Should" be true for Christians. I don't "refrain" from murder, because it's "Against God's Law", but because I love God. So whether it's against the law on not, I don't murder.

BTW, I know a number of you have responded to some of my posts, and I have not replied. This is not because I'm not reading them, but I had spent a great deal of time in this thread, and I needed some down time. (As I had mentioned in the post previous to this one.) Of course as I mentioned before, I would be happy to answer any direct questions. Other wise I will just read your thoughts and comments. (Besides, I'm not the kind of guy that feels compelled to get the last word.)

Best regards,
--Tachus

[Chairboy]

Well said, Samiam.

[lazs2]

well said tachus.

lazs

[Samiam]

Well, Tachus, you certainly give me more comfort than cav58d does.

But still, the argument of christians is that they would not vote for atheist for president because an atheist has no moral compass.

But isn't it the case that a 50ish year-old law abiding atheist who has raised a family and not cheated on his wife (unlike most of the current crop of christian politicians) and led a reasonably good life with no other motivation than empathy toward his fellow man has a MUCH better sense of morality than a christian who is simply obeying the laws of god on faith that there's some greater reward.

And aren't terrorists who blow themselves up along with innocents claiming to simply be obeying the laws of god as they interpret them?

I don't want you to not kill me because of the way you choose to interpret the laws of your god. I much prefer you not kill me because you see me as a fellow human who wishes to live and you have empathy for my wishes - even if your god's laws have different ideas about me.

[DYNAMITE]

Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
My name is Michael, this is my creed.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger unto those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

What does Pulp Fiction have to do with this?

[bustr]

Originally posted by SkyRock
I totally agree, and therefore, I do not believe that there is no GOD, but that there is an incapability of humans on this planet to even come close to understanding what God might be like.  It is the only reason I will never buy into religions based on the fact that they were born from an intelligence level which was in it's infancy at best during the times most religions were being formed.  I was raised in the church and it wasn't until I was tutored from the 11th grade to the 12th grade in the bible(was actually part of the course to read old and new testemants) that I found something wrong with.........faith!   I found that my curiosity was challenging my faith.  It was a horrible and a very guilt ridden journey, yet in the end, I found a peace that was overwhelming.  I do not believe religions of this world.  I also, through my education in the sciences, do not believe that God is disproven, just that humans do not have the capacity of understanding to attain the conception of what apparently is the power that exists in the Universe that ultimately may be considered.....GOD!  The human soul, not much unlike tracing your roots, can be mapped through history from when burials started to take the form of decorating the dead.  It is not inherently without hope, yet very hopeful in our quest,  to understand what is the "math", "reason", "purpose", and ultimately our "goal" for being alive!

Mark Magill 8/21/07:aok

SkyRock,

This is one of the better descriptions of the Western realisation of "What is the sound of one hand clapping"?

Each of us has the capablility of knowing we are aware of the infinite. Some of us strive to place a face or form on the infinite. Obviously this is impossible. In the moment of hearing the sound of one hand, the infinite is realised, then lost. But the knowlege and form of it stays upon our being. This is enough to keep us on the life long journy to return back to the infinite of which we always have been from before birth and after birth.

After nearly 20 years of zen and buddism as a foundation for kenjutsu, I decided the infinite is God. God is formless, all form and infinitely beyond our earthly conceptual limitations. Religion's these days seem to have lost the mission that they are to help the flock follow Gods foot steps and sign posts which are everywhere if one can just stop their EGO and listen to the sound of one hand clapping. Any human being at any time can touch the spark of the inifinite and know. That is on of the affermations of free will.

It is also one of the affermations of free will that some choose not to. Neither person is more or less than the other for these two choices.