Author Topic: Strange P-40 stuff  (Read 2923 times)

Offline Knegel

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Strange P-40 stuff
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2006, 02:26:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman
They operated best between Sea Level  & 15,000', around 350mph IAS, performance started badly falling off above this Alt.,  w/o the Supercharger that the Brass Hats had removed.

I've researched WWII Pursuit Ships & Fighters for over 30 years & read thousands of Pilot Combat Reports & those Pilots Personal Statements regarding these A/C, as the Models of most of the A/C flown here are nothing close to the actual Performance capabilities.


Hi,

if you think a P40E was able to reach 350mph IAS in a level flight, i dont know what you did research the last 30 years.  :rolleyes:
Actually i doubt that any wartime P40 was able to reach this.

btw, in almost every theatre i saw u writing you state that the AH plane performences are not like the real ones. Could you please explain what was the real performence??  
Most AH perfromence datas(Vmax, climb, roll) fit rather good to the known test.  Maybe you 1st should find a good joystick setup and get used to the planes?

Greetings,

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2006, 04:59:52 PM »
Some more strange P-40B behavior.

Taking off from a 20k field in TA... Full throttle will not produce more than 1 mph of speed. When WEP is selected, RPM and MAP come up to where expected. What makes this extra strange is that the P-40B does not have WEP.....

P-40B max speed as measured over a 10 minute run (diving down from 20k) is 338 mph @ 16,000 feet. Fuel was 25% with zero burn. This is acceptable performance for a fully loaded P-40C/Tomahawk Mk. IIb (345 mph clean), but is 12 to 15 mph slower than the P-40/P-40B/Tomahawk Mk. IIa.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2006, 08:22:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,

if you think a P40E was able to reach 350mph IAS in a level flight, i dont know what you did research the last 30 years.  :rolleyes:
Actually i doubt that any wartime P40 was able to reach this.

btw, in almost every theatre i saw u writing you state that the AH plane performences are not like the real ones. Could you please explain what was the real performence??  
Most AH perfromence datas(Vmax, climb, roll) fit rather good to the known test.  Maybe you 1st should find a good joystick setup and get used to the planes?

Greetings,


Salutations;

Do you always attack & attempt to make fun of those that you do not agree w/, I thought I left the Public School system & it's Jock mentality behind years ago. :p

Explain that to the A.V.G. Pilots that had Hand Fitted, Balanced/Blue Printed & Ported/Polished engines in the Planes that were purchased by the C.K-s. Gov. for them after they took over the order of Tomahawks the R.A.F. rejected, there were No engines available for them, as the ones on the Assembly Lines were already barely filling the back orders. The company offered them the rejects from the Assembly Line that were Out of Spec & would take to much time & money to hand fit under War time conditions.

But the C.K-s. Gov., paid for the extra employees to be hired for this purpose & the Company was glad to get them out of the warehouse. If you've ever had a B&B & P&P engine there is a good jump in performance due to this & this is one of the reasons why the AVG did so well against the Nips, besides the brilliant tactics worked out by Brig. Gen. Claire Chennault that exploited the P-40s Strengths. These were also a P-40B/C hybrid having some features from both models.

This was brought out in books, in previous interviews by those formerly in the A.V.G. & in a recent interview of former AVG, 3rd Pursuit Squadron, Hell's Angels Pilot Erik Shilling, as he was doing a walk around of a P-40C being restored as a B model w/ his Marking on the Olde Girl. He pointed out discrepancies in equipment that was & wasn’t there in the C model being restored from what he actually flew in combat & he refreshed his memory by going back through the diary he kept while in the A.V.G..

The last time I flew, TAS had to be calculated using different variables for C.C. Flying & IAS was what you read off the Air Speed Indicator @ that specific point in time in flight.
I probably should have used Kts. instead of MPH., but I believe U.S.A.A.C & the A.V.G. was using MPH @ that time.

All right, according to what the Crew @ H.T. has written on how these planes should be Flown in the A.H. combat system on the A.H. site & the 3/4s of the A/C I've flown in A.H. so far matches nothing that I've Read in the A/C Performence Specs or Experienced during rides & unofficial Stick time in Piggyback variations of these A/C.


I've done everything that the Game states I should do to Calibrate my "Wingman Force 3D" to the game & so far except for a few A/C, Most of what I've flown in Off-Line Practice Flights does not go over the 200MPH mark @ any Alt. Widewing believes there's a Throttle problem & wishes to work it out w/ me & I'm willing to try that, but it works just fine in all other Flight Sims I've flown in.


Cheers
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 09:53:50 PM by Col. Flashman »

Offline Magoo

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Strange P-40 stuff
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2006, 09:20:19 PM »
I read that the AVG actually never flew against the Zero. It was the Oscar they fought primarily, which would make sense as the Zero was a Navy fighter and the Oscar was an Army fighter. You got to remember, these guys were in the war well before Pearl Harbor and the Zero was an unpleasant surprise to the US pilots once we entered the war.

I imagine the P40 could do rather well up against the Oscar, which was slower than the Zero and had pitiful guns.

Magoo
A bandit on your six is better than no bandit at all!

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2006, 09:49:09 PM »
:O wow i never knew all that stuff lol

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2006, 09:58:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Magoo
I read that the AVG actually never flew against the Zero. It was the Oscar they fought primarily, which would make sense as the Zero was a Navy fighter and the Oscar was an Army fighter. You got to remember, these guys were in the war well before Pearl Harbor and the Zero was an unpleasant surprise to the US pilots once we entered the war.

I imagine the P40 could do rather well up against the Oscar, which was slower than the Zero and had pitiful guns.

Magoo


Primary fighter opposition for the AVG was the Ki-43 and Ki-27. No Zeros were in Burma or China in late '41 thru July 4, 1942 when the AVG was disbanded and absorbed into the AAF.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2006, 10:08:56 PM »
From my website, part of an article written by Erik Shilling, with photos contributed by Tom Cleaver. I added the following as a footnote:

"Recent research appears to support Erik Shilling's strong argument that the AVG aircraft were very close to the P-40B configuration, which the British designated as the Tomahawk IIA. The history of the AVG fighters is nearly as interesting as the story of the AVG itself.

When the Chinese asked the U.S. for assistance, they asked for fighters and bombers. For political reasons, FDR would agree only to fighters, and U.S. law at the time allowed only for cash & carry sales to beligerents. So, a China based corporation was formed to purchase aircraft. However, virtually all U.S. production capacity was allocated for our own build up and existing contracts with friendly nations such as Britain. In order to free up some aircraft for China, the U.S. asked the Brits to exchange later model P-40Ds (Kittyhawk I) for currently ordered Tomahawk IIB fighters. The Brits agreed and 100 of the contracted Tomahawks were transferred to a Chinese contract.

Curtiss saw an opportunity to utilize stock of enternally sealed fuel tanks that had been used on the Tomahawk IIA. The Brits did not like the external sealing and specified internal sealing for future builds. This left Curtiss with over 100 sets of obsolete fuel tanks. This was their chance to use these, and they had already been written off. This would enhance profits. In addition, the Chinese contract, unlike that with the Brits, did not specify plumbing or shackles for an external fuel tank, so this was deleted from the Chinese aircraft. Again, this simplified production and increased the profit margin. The net result is that even though the 100 fighters carried Tomahawk IIB serial numbers, these fighters were very much like the IIA, except that they had IIB armor.

Allison was running at 100% capacity. Simply stated, there weren't any extra engines to be had. Every block and cylinder head was already allocated to an existing contract. But, wait a minute, there were plenty of rejected blocks, cylinder heads and such. Allison realized that most of the rejected engine components were usable if the various parts were hand matched and fitted. They set up a production line and began assembling these engines. Individual parts were reworked and carefully matched. The results of this procedure were engines built to very tight tolerances. Essentially, these were 'blueprinted' engines. Dyno tests revealed that they produced as much as 220 hp more than the production line V-1710-33s going into the RAF Tomahawks and USAAF P-40C fighters. Allison had produced some very powerful and very expensive engines. Fortunately they were allowed to bury the extra cost into contracts for U.S. aircraft. These engines certainly account for the performance of the AVG's Tomahawks. In general terms, the AVG fighters could pull up to 370 mph in level flight, which is reasonable considering that these aircraft had 20% more power and less weight than the British Tomahawk IIB. Another fact not picked up on as significant by historians was the high rate of reduction gear failures in the AVG aircraft. This is easily explained when you realize that the older style reduction gear was rated for no more than 1,100 hp. With as much as 1,250 hp on tap, the reduction gearbox was over-stressed and frequently stripped gears. Later models, with 1,200 hp engines were fitted with a much stronger spur gear design that could handle up to 1,600 hp. This is the major reason that the nose is shorter from the P-40D onward.

Now that the Chinese had airframes and engines, they needed to purchase guns for the fighters. Once again, all production was allocated for existing contracts. Nonetheless, CAMCO (the China based front company) managed to purchase enough .50 caliber Brownings for all 100 Tomahawks. Finding .30 caliber guns (installed in the wings) was more of a problem. Eventually, the 100 Tomahawks were fitted with a mixture of guns. Some were fitted with 7.92mm caliber wing guns, others carried British specification guns in .303 caliber. Still others were armed with .30 U.S. caliber Brownings. This complicated logistics somewhat, but all three calibers were readily available, even 7.92mm, which was the standard for the Chinese Army.

Within the context of this knowledge, we can understand that the AVG fighters were a unique model. For that reason, Curtiss gave them their own special designation. Originally contracted for as the Curtiss H81-2A, these fighters were designated as the H81-3A. Many historians and authors have confused the various Curtiss designations, or figured that these were Tomahawk IIB aircraft based upon the serial numbers. We now know that these were a special model. It should also be noted that the serial numbers were assigned months before actual manufacturing began.

So, a unique group of fighter pilots flew an equally unique version of the Curtiss H81/Tomahawk/P-40."

You can see the article, with photos of the world's only flying Tomahawk, here.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2006, 10:14:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman
I've done everything that the Game states I should do to Calibrate my "Wingman Force 3D" to the game & so far except for a few A/C, Most of what I've flown in Off-Line Practice Flights does not go over the 200MPH mark @ any Alt. Widewing believes there's a Throttle problem & wishes to work it out w/ me & I'm willing to try that, but it works just fine in all other Flight Sims I've flown in.


Flashman, you can send me a private message thru this BBS. Let me know when you can be available and we can get together in the Training Arena and sort out your throttle woes.

In the meanwhile, you can always use the = key for throttle, and don't forget that the P key toggles WEP on and off. You cannot engage WEP unless the engine is at full MIL power. Observe the manifold pressure gauge and make sure you have full RPM (which is controlled by the - and + keys on the number pad).

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2006, 11:01:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Magoo
I read that the AVG actually never flew against the Zero. It was the Oscar they fought primarily, which would make sense as the Zero was a Navy fighter and the Oscar was an Army fighter. You got to remember, these guys were in the war well before Pearl Harbor and the Zero was an unpleasant surprise to the US pilots once we entered the war.

I imagine the P40 could do rather well up against the Oscar, which was slower than the Zero and had pitiful guns.

Magoo



True, but the Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter Model 11 (A6M Zero-sen) was in service w/ the 12th Combined Rokutai, Hankow region of China Winter '40-'41 & is Listed in Gen Chennaults Reports to U.S.A.A.C. H.Q. in 1940/41 & he was completly ignored & labeled as an alarmist, because No A/C of that era could have those Performance Specs. He'd been in China since early '37 as an Advisor to the C.K-s. Government. The Type 0 Performance Specs & Designs had also been smuggled out of Nippon in early '40 & given the same treatment by U.S.A.A.C. H.Q..

But w/ the Zero operating w/ the 12th Combined Rokutai, it seems that the I.J.A. & I.J.N. were either co-operative some times & flew out of the same bases or the I.J.A.. got there hands on the "Zeke" for themselves.

These A/C below were the main opponents of the C.A.M.C.O.'s A.V.G. & Possibly along w/ some Zero's operating w/ units such as the 12th C.R.

The Army Type 97 Fighter Model A (Ki-27), code name Abdul in the C.B.I. & later changed to Nate, w/ its two 7.7 (0.303-in.) calibre M.G.'s.

The  Army Type 1 Fighter 1A Hayabusa (Ki-43) code name Oscar, 1a had two 7.7 calibre (0.303-in), 1b had one 7.7 calibre (0.303-in) & one 12.7 calibre (0.5-in) & 1c had two 12.7 (0.5-in.) M.G.'s.

These could be considered weak, but were deadly under the control of a Talented Pilot.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 12:45:32 AM by Col. Flashman »

Offline Col. Flashman

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Strange P-40 stuff
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2006, 11:16:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
From my website, part of an article written by Erik Shilling, with photos contributed by Tom Cleaver. I added the following as a footnote:

My regards,

Widewing


This is rather Amusing, as I was originally going to C&P this into my post, but it made it to long I believed.
So I was going to put it into  another reply instead & you beat me to it.:p :aok :lol
So when can we expect to be able to Fly these Hybred A.V.G. P-40s in a Special Arena?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 11:21:58 PM by Col. Flashman »

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2006, 11:19:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Flashman, you can send me a private message thru this BBS. Let me know when you can be available and we can get together in the Training Arena and sort out your throttle woes.

In the meanwhile, you can always use the = key for throttle, and don't forget that the P key toggles WEP on and off. You cannot engage WEP unless the engine is at full MIL power. Observe the manifold pressure gauge and make sure you have full RPM (which is controlled by the - and + keys on the number pad).

My regards,

Widewing


Looks good to me, boy-o.
As soon as I can co-ordinate w/ the family some free time, you're on.
That didn't seem to have any effect, but I'll give it another try.

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2006, 01:03:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman
Salutations;

Do you always attack & attempt to make fun of those that you do not agree w/, I thought I left the Public School system & it's Jock mentality behind years ago. :p

Cheers


Hi,

actually its somewhat funny to see someone stating the P40B/C could fly 350mph IAS, specialy if he claim to have 30 years of experiences(reaserches etc).

As you maybe can see in the article that Widewing posted, even the very good AVG P40´s only did reach 370mph TAS and thats probably in best altitude. Thats far away from 350mph IAS!!

Eric Schilling already is known as a P40 fan, but i never saw him claiming speeds of 350mph IAS for the P40.

350mph IAS would be good above 400mph TAS in 3000m altitude.

Greetings,

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2006, 02:32:09 AM »
Laugh it up, Fussball.

As I stated before, T.A.S. is a CALCULATED Air Speed that takes all variables into consideration for Cross Country Flying & unless I'm foregetting what an A/C Air Speed Indicator actually does, it certainly does not do those calculations for you. Especially back during W.W. II w/ what can be considered rather primitive Instruments compared to today’s.

Indicated Air Speed is just that, the I.A.S. you see on an Air Speed Indicator @ that specific moment in time w/o taking Any variables into consideration, such as Cross, Head, Tail Winds, etc., as your T.A.S. can be Faster or Slower or Anywhere in Between from what you actually see for an I.A.S. on your A.S.I..

Once again, I stated that these speeds were I.A.S., Not T.A.S., as you can not expect a Fighter Pilot to Stop to Calculate what his T.A.S. is in a Running Dogfight. They write in their reports what they SAW @ the Time being Indicated on their Instruments. The actual T.A.S. could very well have been Faster, Slower or Somewhere in Between the speed that was being Indicated @ that particular moment in time & so the I.A.S. is what was reported.

Have ever you spoken w/ Erik Shilling @ an Air Show or any where else?
Interesting conversation, wish you could have been there, lo those many years ago.
A.V.G. P-40 Pilot 1st, Fan second & you wish you could've been him.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 02:40:07 AM by Col. Flashman »

Offline gripen

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« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2006, 02:44:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman

As I stated before, T.A.S. is a CALCULATED Air Speed that takes all variables into consideration for Cross Country Flying & unless I'm foregetting what an A/C Air Speed Indicator actually does, it certainly does not do those calculations for you. Especially back during W.W. II w/ what can be considered rather primitive Instruments compared to today’s.

Indicated Air Speed is just that, the I.A.S. you see on an Air Speed Indicator @ that specific moment in time w/o taking Any variables into consideration, such as Cross, Head, Tail Winds, etc., as your T.A.S. can be Faster or Slower or Anywhere in Between from what you actually see for an I.A.S. on your A.S.I..


Hm... You are somehow mixing various speed units; TAS is not same as ground speed. TAS does not depend wind while ground speed depends on wind.

gripen

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2006, 02:55:44 AM »
Then my Flight Instructor screwed the Pooch when I was in Flight School, because he used the two of them interchangably.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 03:02:22 AM by Col. Flashman »