Energy Fighting and History

[calan]

Since everyone is always talking about E states and "managing E"....

I was flipping through the history channel and caught a few minutes of Legends Of Airpower while they were talking about Boyd. From what I gathered, he pioneered the concepts of E-fighting in the late 50's and early 60's, which led to the development of planes and technologies that could utilize these ideas.

So my questions are:

1. Is this correct? (I was drinking a few beers at the time    )

2. If so... were the WWII pilots just intuitively using these tactics with the various planes that could take advantage of "E fighting", without really being aware of it, or...

3. Have modern pilots and AH developers/players simply adapted these more modern concepts to planes that were developed before this idea was introduced?

Just wondering....

Calan

[ViZeen]

I am no AC history buff or AC buff at all but from what I gather ACM was pretty much developed during WW1  (stall and energy) and hasn't really changed all that much over the years. I am sure tatics have become more complex with radar and missles being put to use but a split S is still spelled with an S or as I hear the brit piluts called it a split arse

[Gooss]

Has anyone found Boyd's ACM manual online?

His warfare ideas can be found posted online, but I never found his writings on air combat.

Thanks.

HONK!
Gooss

[Nightshift82]

sure, if you even seen "dogfight" on the history channel, pay close attention to the p-51's vs. the 109's

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by calan
Since everyone is always talking about E states and "managing E"....

I was flipping through the history channel and caught a few minutes of Legends Of Airpower while they were talking about Boyd. From what I gathered, he pioneered the concepts of E-fighting in the late 50's and early 60's, which led to the development of planes and technologies that could utilize these ideas.

So my questions are:

1. Is this correct? (I was drinking a few beers at the time    )

2. If so... were the WWII pilots just intuitively using these tactics with the various planes that could take advantage of "E fighting", without really being aware of it, or...

3. Have modern pilots and AH developers/players simply adapted these more modern concepts to planes that were developed before this idea was introduced?

Just wondering....

Calan

They certainly were using E-fighting in WW2.  It was clear early on that non of the US fighters were going to turn fight with the Zero so it was B&Z em to death starting with Chennault and his P40s, but certainly the 38 drivers learned it very quickly as well in the 39th FS when they took the 38 into combat against the much more nimble Oscars and Zekes.

[SIK1]

Boyd did not create energy fighting, but a way to quantify an aircrafts energy state. Be it your aircraft or your oponents. I saw the same program last night.

SIK1

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Guppy35
They certainly were using E-fighting in WW2.  It was clear early on that non of the US fighters were going to turn fight with the Zero so it was B&Z em to death starting with Chennault and his P40s, but certainly the 38 drivers learned it very quickly as well in the 39th FS when they took the 38 into combat against the much more nimble Oscars and Zekes.

Think he's talking about energy fighting like Bullethead used to talk about, not the straight b&z that the Tigers andothers used.

- oldman

[Squire]

They didnt call it "E fighting" in WW1, but the concept was there, ie, the tactics of a faster heavier a/c, like a SPAD XIII, vs a more nimble design, like a Fokker Dr1. They understood the basic concepts, without the fancy "Top Gun" school, jet-age terminology. They understood altitude gives you the initiative, and that climb rate was important, as was being able to dive at high speed to escape.