Now I've seen everything

[Neubob]

Originally posted by storch
so you being of the tolerant tree loving whale loving snail darter loving liberal American way of life, saying you want to shoot me?  and with a straight face you probably tell people that the moslem terrorists being detained in guantanamo should be released because we are violating their civil rights.

go figure.

are you susan sarandon?

Wow Storch, you've really got me pegged...a couple quick facts:

I've never voted for a democrat in my life. I voted for Bush, regretfully.  I own a gun, and I like shooting things with it, and I believe that most people are fit to own them as well. I think that the world would be better off without Islam altogether, and if they gassed every last one of them at Guantanamo this afternoon, I wouldn't lose a second's worth of sleep. In fact, my only major contentions with your beloved Right are their stances on religion and abortion.


I think that organized religion is the root of too many evils. Islam, Christianity, the difference is in the details. At their core, they both justify intolerance, narrow-mindedness and serve little purpose other than being history's oldest and most effective shortcut to thinking. A great tool for oppressors, of course, but of little practical purpose to the masses. Even those who are tolerant ascribe everything that is good and decent to their prophet of choice, instead of giving credit where credit is due.

And I don't care about trees or snails, or the spotted owls or the plight of the poor illegal immigrants. If anything brings about our doom, it's going to be this nation's growing obsession with the Easter Bunny, or whichever idiotic icon the bible-thumping simpletons put up on a pedestal.

As for my wanting to shoot you, I believe that started with your suggestion to 'be the first'. I don't pretend to be a tolerant neighbor-loving Christian. That's your racket. The offer still stands.

[storch]

Originally posted by Neubob
Wow Storch, you've really got me pegged...a couple quick facts:

I've never voted for a democrat in my life. I voted for Bush, regretfully.  I own a gun, and I like shooting things with it, and I believe that most people are fit to own them as well. I think that the world would be better off without Islam altogether, and if they gassed every last one of them at Guantanamo this afternoon, I wouldn't lose a second's worth of sleep. In fact, my only major contentions with your beloved Right are their stances on religion and abortion.


I think that organized religion is the root of too many evils. Islam, Christianity, the difference is in the details. At their core, they both justify intolerance, narrow-mindedness and serve little purpose other than being history's oldest and most effective shortcut to thinking. A great tool for oppressors, of course, but of little practical purpose to the masses. Even those who are tolerant ascribe everything that is good and decent to their prophet of choice, instead of giving credit where credit is due.

And I don't care about trees or snails, or the spotted owls or the plight of the poor illegal immigrants. If anything brings about our doom, it's going to be this nation's growing obsession with the Easter Bunny, or whichever idiotic icon the bible-thumping simpletons put up on a pedestal.

As for my wanting to shoot you, I believe that started with your suggestion to 'be the first'. I don't pretend to be a tolerant neighbor-loving Christian. That's your racket. The offer still stands.

that would be first to shoot your reflection but let's not confuse each other facts.

[mosgood]

Originally posted by Neubob

I think that organized religion is the root of too many evils. Islam, Christianity, the difference is in the details. At their core, they both justify intolerance, narrow-mindedness and serve little purpose other than being history's oldest and most effective shortcut to thinking. A great tool for oppressors, of course, but of little practical purpose to the masses. Even those who are tolerant ascribe everything that is good and decent to their prophet of choice, instead of giving credit where credit is due.  

What is in mens hearts is the root of evil... but I guess you would have to actually READ the bible before speaking about Christianity.  If you had you would see that misinterpretation is the problem... not the message.

And regarding your mention of narrow-mindedness and the value you place on thinking.. Intelligence and thinking are only a few of the tools we should be using.. maybe you shouldn't be so narrowminded yourself and see that.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by mosgood
What is in mens hearts is the root of evil... but I guess you would have to actually READ the bible before speaking about Christianity.  If you had you would see that misinterpretation is the problem... not the message.

And regarding your mention of narrow-mindedness and the value you place on thinking.. Intelligence and thinking are only a few of the tools we should be using.. maybe you shouldn't be so narrowminded yourself and see that.

Actually Mosgood, I did read the bible. Much of it, anyway. Was forced to after signing up for a class on it. If the effects of it are as they are, then the messege becomes insignificant. As some people like to say, 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions', and this may be the best example of it.

There is little we can do about mankind's propensity for misinterpretation and exploitation. It's inherent in our flaws. The bible, and all the other major religious handbooks, for all their positive messeges, have provided many tools for men with evil in their hearts to abuse. If not for the positive message,  the supposed pathways to righteousness, and the ever-so-sweet promise of paradise, religion wouldn't be as effective in numbing the masses as it is. A person's religion is, more often than not, a factor of where you are born. The choice, for most, is made for them by those that raise them. Of the billions that practice in organized religion, only a tiny minority actually go out and shop around for a set of beliefs that fits them best. Of course, a Christian would respond to that by saying : 'of course, because there is only one'.  A muslim would say the same thing. Therefore, regardless of messeges, I cannot help but view these traditions of belief as nothing more than different versions of the same thing.

Christian or Muslim or Jewish, 'In the name of god' has a really nice ring to it when you're about to do something utterly disgusting, sadistic, or just plain stupid. As for doing good deeds... I'm partial to doing that for its own sake.

[lukster]

Originally posted by mosgood
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061027/ap_on_re_au_an/australia_muslims



update

"Australia's top Muslim cleric defied mounting pressure to step down for comments comparing women without head scarves to "uncovered meat," and suggested Friday that President Bush was more deserving of criticism for the bloodshed in Iraq."

Didn't take him long to play the Bush card.

[mosgood]

Originally posted by Neubob
Actually Mosgood, I did read the bible. Much of it, anyway. Was forced to after signing up for a class on it. If the effects of it are as they are, then the messege becomes insignificant. As some people like to say, 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions', and this may be the best example of it.

I appreciate your response.

Personally, I believe that the effects you mention are not the effects of the bible but the misinterpretation, as I had said.  I think where we differ is the number of people that are misinterpreting to the extent of the effects you are talking about.  I would also think that many of the people you are thinking of are not even going on the message at all but were just intentionally interpreting parts of the message to serve their own ends.  Either way, I would disagree about the true effects being insignificant.

One example comes to mind... Have you followed the situation where the guy siezed and shot the 10 young girls in the school house.  I think 8 were killed.

I was amazed by the strength of the words in the bible had on thier lives regarding forgiveness, letting the Lord judge and compasion by families and friends of the girls.  Amish I think.  They are raised and brought up in the words of Jesus and in the Bible.  The family of the guy that murdered these children were embraced by friends of the victims family and I thnk by some of the families as well with compassion.  I think that the effects the bible has on people to have that kind of strength is not insignificant

[Maverick]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
He we can only hope.

Hey! We can then arm both sides

there is a profit to be made here

Ferenghi!

[mosgood]

Originally posted by mosgood
I appreciate your response.

Personally, I believe that the effects you mention are not the effects of the bible but the misinterpretation, as I had said.  I think where we differ is the number of people that are misinterpreting to the extent of the effects you are talking about.  I would also think that many of the people you are thinking of are not even going on the message at all but were just intentionally interpreting parts of the message to serve their own ends.  Either way, I would disagree about the true effects being insignificant.

One example comes to mind... Have you followed the situation where the guy siezed and shot the 10 young girls in the school house.  I think 8 were killed.

I was amazed by the strength of the words in the bible had on thier lives regarding forgiveness, letting the Lord judge and compasion by families and friends of the girls.  Amish I think.  They are raised and brought up in the words of Jesus and in the Bible.  The family of the guy that murdered these children were embraced by friends of the victims family and I thnk by some of the families as well with compassion.  I think that the effects the bible has on people to have that kind of strength is not insignificant

Here's a link to this.. i would have put it in the oter ost but my edit time expired.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6052758.stm

[Neubob]

I know about this story, Mosgood. And while it is very admirable, and heartening, and not insignificant, I do believe that it is exceptionally rare. Also, the tolerance, and forgiveness these people show is not solely a product of the bible, or its teachings. You said earlier that all evil comes from the hearts of men. I think that all good does as well. If it takes the bible to act as a catalyst for that good, then so be it. Sadly, it acts as a catalyst for a whole slew of negatives as well. I recall not long ago, a group of whackos in the mid-west were praising god for things like 9/11 and the deaths of American servicemen in Iraq, calling it divine retribution for tolerating homosexuality, or this, or that. Their response, while exceptionally rare and fanatical, is the flip side of the Amish coin. Same catalyst, radically different results.

I want to reiterate that I am not an athiest. I am not a communist that believes that religion should be outlawed. I just think that it has no place in creating national policy. The things that worry me the most are prayer in public  school, the teaching of creationism, and the general religious slant that is becoming prevalent today. Parents that want to indoctrinate their children have more than enough time to do so at home. This indoctrination should not be a part of a general curriculum. It seems like the people who believe the opposite, the people that want to force their rituals, are gaining prominance every day.

[lukster]

I think what you are seeing Neubob is a reaction (long overdue imo) by the majority of people want who their values upheld and reflected in society to the attempted secularization of that society.

[Neubob]

Ok, but where are those values going to lead us if their rising prevalence results in the marginalization of other values--values that are no less American? Freedom of speech(what if systems of censorship start creeping into the mix, not just in popular media, but in schools' textbooks?), freedom of religion (which can be interpreted as freedom from religion, as well)... Freedom of private enterprise and personal endeavor (what if legislation is passed to ban private stem-cell research, and what if it doesn't stop there?). Nations can and have slid into fanaticism. Where will this reaction end?

[lukster]

Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are two freedoms being encroached upon by the progressive secularists. I hope the reaction to that never ends.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by lukster
Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are two freedoms being encroached upon by the progressive secularists. I hope the reaction to that never ends.

What about freedom to be free of religion? Isn't that a right also? If I want to live in a society that doesn't determine in who and what I believe, and ram those same doctrines down the throats of my offspring, do I not have the right to expect that, or am I, simply by virtue of my citizenship, forced to accept your beliefs, forced to have my decendants accept your beliefs, even if my own beliefs are different? Or do I simply have to find secular private schools to educate my kids in a neutral fashion?

I'd like to see examples of these progressive secularists actually encroaching on your freedom to believe and practice. If you call the resistence of certain groups to the teaching of the bible in public schools, encroachment, then I'll have to disagree with you. Some people do not want to live in a nation governed by the laws and values of Christianity. Some people want their children to remain blank slates, as far as religious beliefs go, either because they want the kids to make up their own minds, or because they know that even if the American Public school system adopts a policy of teaching religion, it will be not be their religion that will be taught. Those people's resistence to the intermixing of religious indocrination and the realm of the government is only an effort to keep things neutral.

I guess it can all be summarized pretty briefly. Nobody is stopping you from making little Christians out of your children at home, just don't make little Christians out of mine at school.

[lukster]

Certainly you have the right to be religion free in your own life so long as it does not prevent me from exercising mine. You don't want to live in a country where the laws are/were most definitely influenced by Christianity? Might I suggest China?

Originally posted by Neubob
What about freedom to be free of religion? Isn't that a right also? If I want to live in a society that doesn't determine in who and what I believe, and ram those same doctrines down the throats of my offspring, do I not have the right to expect that, or am I, simply by virtue of my citizenship, forced to accept your beliefs, forced to have my decendants accept your beliefs, even if my own beliefs are different? Or do I simply have to find secular private schools to educate my kids in a neutral fashion?

I'd like to see examples of these progressive secularists actually encroaching on your freedom to believe and practice. If you call the resistence of certain groups to the teaching of the bible in public schools, encroachment, then I'll have to disagree with you. Some people do not want to live in a nation governed by the laws and values of Christianity. Some people want their children to remain blank slates, as far as religious beliefs go, either because they want the kids to make up their own minds, or because they know that even if the American Public school system adopts a policy of teaching religion, it will be not be their religion that will be taught. Those people's resistence to the intermixing of religious indocrination and the realm of the government is only an effort to keep things neutral.

I guess it can all be summarized pretty briefly. Nobody is stopping you from making little Christians out of your children at home, just don't make little Christians out of mine at school.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by lukster
Certainly you have the right to be religion free in your own life so long as it does not prevent me from exercising mine. You don't want to live in a country where the laws are/were most definitely influenced by Christianity? Might I suggest China?

I never said anything about preventing or forcing you to do anything. I suppose asking the same from you is too much. As far as your suggestion for me to go to China, Lukster, here's a counter suggestion:

Instead of telling me to love it or leave it, why not try practicing some of that famous Christian tolerance? You'll win more supporters for your Christian Theocracy that way.

Still waiting on your examples of progressive secularists robbing you of your rights.