Author Topic: If you could talk to a WWII Fighter Pilot  (Read 3059 times)

Offline Widewing

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If you could talk to a WWII Fighter Pilot
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2006, 12:01:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Better get Widewing in here.  I'm sure he'd put the rest of us to shame with the amount of stories he's heard.

Come one Widewing.  Share the wealth :)


I have a lot of interviews saved on tape, with some burned as audio CDs. I have around 5 hours of interviews with Robert Johnson and about 90 minutes with Gabreski. In addition, I have interviews with Erik Shilling, Art Heiden as well as several other P-38 pilots from the ETO. Plus, I have literally hundreds of e-mails that can be compiled.

Back in 2001, I posted the transcribed text of one phone conversation with Johnson. I have partially transcribed another. Here's the one I posted 5 years ago...

Bob Johnson Interview, Part 1:
A few months before Robert Johnson died (December 27th, 1998), I conducted nearly five hours of telephone interviews with Bob over the course of three weeks. I managed to record all but the first hour. During our conversations, we discussed the tactics he employed while battling the Luftwaffe. The following are some excerpts from one of our discussions.

CCJ: I have read an article about you and the tactics you used, that described you as one of the first fighter pilots to truly fight in the vertical plane.

RSJ: I don't know about that, there were others who fought that way.

CCJ: But not in the Thunderbolt....

RSJ: No, I guess not, at least when we first went operational.

CCJ: Can you describe how you used vertical maneuvering to your advantage, especially in the heavy-weight Jug?

RSJ: I think that you need to understand that everyone thought that the P-47 was a deathtrap. RAF pilots told us that we wouldn't have a chance against single-engine fighters. Those of us who had been flying the P-47 for a while knew otherwise, but there was nothing we could say that would convince the British, or the guys in the 4th.

CCJ: Guys of the 4th? You mean the 4th Fighter Group?

RSJ: Yeah. They were not at all happy trading in their Spitfires for the Thunderbolt.

CCJ: Didn't the 56th surrender their P-47s to the 4th after you arrived?

RSJ: Yes, we were told that we would be getting new planes.

CCJ: I'll bet that struck a nerve in the 56th.

RSJ: It sure did. We already had hundreds of hours in P-47Bs and Cs. No other group of pilots in the ETO had anywhere near our experience in the Thunderbolt. So naturally, we were not happy to hand them over to another Group. In retrospect, it was obviously a good idea. We realized as soon as we got into combat that there was no substitute for actual combat missions under your belt. Anyway, we trained the 4th on the Thunderbolt and then waited for what seemed like forever, to get our new planes.

CCJ: To get back to tactics, how did your tactics evolve?

RSJ: My tactics were rooted in what I had learned flying the P-47 in the States. We could always find some Navy Corsairs over Long Island Sound. We would bounce them, or they would try to bounce us. Usually, we had the advantage in height so the Corsairs were a lot busier than us.

CCJ: I take it that you seldom let an opportunity to jump them go waste?

RSJ: No, we usually went straight for them.

CCJ: Didn't they see you rolling in?

RSJ: Sometimes. We tried to use the sun to hide in. If they didn't spot us, we would lay it on them good. Their first hint that we were there was when we tore through them at high speed and zoomed back up above them.

CCJ: How did they react?

RSJ: They would usually scatter every which way. We would come back down on them again, but they would be alert now and break into us.

CCJ: I guess that is the point where it would break down into a big brawl?

RSJ: It did at first. The Corsair was just a fast as the Thunderbolt was around 20,000 ft., and it was very maneuverable. As we mixed it up and lost altitude, the Corsair became a real handful to outfly with our P-47Bs. I discovered that the Corsair pilots did not like fighting up hill. What I mean is, they would not or could not follow you if you pulled the nose up into a steep climb. I realized that the Corsair couldn't climb any better than the P-47, and would tend to spin out of a vertical stall. I also found that that any P-47, even the P-47B, could out-dive the Corsair. So that gave me two important advantages that I would use every chance I got.

CCJ: So these mock dogfights helped you learn how to exploit the inherent strengths of the Thunderbolt.

RSJ: Yes, very much so.

CCJ: What about facing the Fw 190 and Messerschmitts?

RSJ: The Focke Wulf reminded me of the Corsair. It was much smaller of course, but they both had similar maneuverability. It wasn't quite as fast, but turned well. It was unusual to find Focke Wulfs above us. Generally, we held the advantage in height. The Me 109 was another story. They could often be seen up above 35,000 feet.

CCJ: What was the biggest mistake a German pilot could make?

RSJ: Trying to escape in a dive or split-S.

CCJ: Why?

RSJ: Because they were not going to out-run the Thunderbolt in a dive.

CCJ: You could catch them without a problem.

RSJ: I could catch them in nothing flat.

CCJ: Really?

RSJ: Absolutely. One thing about the 190, if the pilot continued his dive below 7 or 8 thousand feet, he could not pull out before he hit the ground. I guess they had compressibility problems or the elevators got too stiff. What ever the problem was, I watched several of them pancake in before they could level off.

CCJ: What about the Thunderbolt?

RSJ: It did not have that problem down that low. Up high, above 25,000 feet, yes, I could get into compressibility and the elevators locked up like they were in concrete. But once you got down to thicker air, you regained control.

CCJ: So, what would you do if suddenly discovered a German fighter on your tail?

RSJ: you mean in close?

CCJ: Yes.

RSJ: That depended a lot on how fast the German was going. If he was moving much faster, I'd simply side-step him by rolling. The German would whiz right on by and I would firewall the throttle and take off after him. If he was a smart German, he would climb straight ahead. If he was a dumb German, he would try to turn. If he turns, his higher speed will make for a wide turn, and I will cut across and be all over him. If he dives, I can follow and eventually catch up. Now, if the German's speed was close to mine, then I had another emergency maneuver that always worked for me.

CCJ: And, that was?

RSJ: I would pull the nose straight up into a vertical rolling spiral, usually to the left. You would stall out, but so would the guy behind you. That killed his advantage.

CCJ: So, what you are describing sound like a rolling hammerhead stall, right?

RSJ: That's a pretty good description.

CCJ: So what happens next?

RSJ: Well, the enemy would stall first because the Jug's mass allowed to retain its, er...

CCJ: Energy?

RSJ: Yes, energy. The P-47's mass allowed it to retain its energy better and it stalled a few seconds after the enemy plane. The German would snap over and head down. Except, now I was right behind him and there was no getting away.

CCJ: Wouldn't he still be directly behind you?

RSJ: No. Pulling up so suddenly always caught them by surprise. The second or two that it took for them to react took care of that.

CCJ: Why did you roll?

RSJ: Because that killed my speed faster than the enemy if he didn't, which gained me the advantage of being to his rear as he zoomed up. If he rolled too, that also worked to my advantage because it killed his speed faster than mine.

CCJ: So, you would get the advantage no matter what, if the German also pulled up into a vertical climb. What if he didn't follow?

RSJ: Then he would just fly by. If he still wanted to fight, he could extend out and turn around, but I would be waiting for him.
If he turned either left or right, I would be all over him in a few seconds.

CCJ: The smart Germans just kept on going when you pulled up.

RSJ: I never ran across one smart enough to keep going. They all tried to follow.

CCJ: How many got away after falling for your trap?

RSJ: I really can't say for sure. Some got away because he had friends to cover his tail. Besides, that maneuver was not so much to get him, but to prevent him from getting you. In that respect, it always worked.




My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2006, 12:02:28 PM »
Bob Johnson interview, Part 2:

CCJ: Much has been written about the incredible roll rate of the Fw 190. Was it as good as they say?

RSJ: The 190 rolled very fast. But, so did the Thunderbolt.

CCJ: But not as quickly as the Focke Wulf.

RSJ: I would say just as fast. I never had a 190 out-roll my Jug. Never.

CCJ: What about a situation where you end up in rolling scissors with a Focke Wulf? Do you follow him by reversing the turn too?

RSJ: No. Whenever you get into a series of reverses, the airplane tends to mush-out a bit when you reverse your turn. The Jug tended to mush a bit more than the 190. The way to avoid this was roll into the reverse.

CCJ: I'm not sure I follow you.

RSJ: Picture this in you mind. The 190 rolls into a hard left. You follow, firing as he crosses your guns. Suddenly, he reverses his turn, hard right. Rather than reverse, you continue rolling left until you are in a right bank, just like the 190. Now, pull hard. No mushing. If he reverses again, you roll left and fire as he crosses your guns. If he doesn't reverse, I pull the nose high and roll out behind him.

CCJ: A high yo-yo?

RSJ: Of a sorts, yes. Continuing the roll simply eliminated the mushing caused by reversing a turn and I would get a clear shot every time the enemy reversed.

CCJ: What you define as the most important things a fighter must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

RSJ: It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities. Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.
CCJ: I remember reading where you thought that your P-47 was the fastest fighter in the ETO.

RSJ: I still believe that it was.

CCJ: Really?

RSJ: Sure. My second Jug, a D-5, was the best P-47 that ever flew, and I flew them all, including the P-47M (Stateside) which the 56th got near the end of the war.

CCJ: What made this one Thunderbolt so fast?

RSJ: Several things. My crew sanded every joint smooth, and waxed it to a high gloss. Factory technical reps showed my crew chief, Pappy Gould, how to adjust the wastegates to keep the boost pressure higher than normal. My D-5, which I named Lucky, had water injection. I never used the water injection in combat. I didn't need it. From time to time I'd switch it on, push the throttle up to 72" of manifold pressure and the head rest would smack me from behind. I would let her run for a few minutes just for the fun of it.

CCJ: 72 inches!? Did you ever take note of your airspeed during one of those runs?

RSJ: Of course.

CCJ: And....... how fast did it go?

RSJ: I've seen just over 300 at altitude.

CCJ: 300 indicated?

RSJ: Yes.

CCJ: What was your altitude?

RSJ: I guess it was right around 30,000 feet.

CCJ: Geez, that’s well over 450 mph!

RSJ: Oh, I figure closer to 470 (Edit: Actually closer to 480 mph TAS at 30k, 468 TAS at 28k)

CCJ: Maybe you did have the fastest fighter in the ETO after all.

RSJ: Like I said, Lucky was the fastest.

CCJ: What ever happened to Lucky?

RSJ: She was lost in a mid-air collision over the North Sea. I don't recall the pilot's name who was flying her on that ramrod. I was very upset. Lucky got at least 24 enemy aircraft and was the best Jug I ever flew. She was trouble free and I never had a single abort while flying her.

CCJ: Bob, one final item before I let you go tonight.

RSJ: Sure.

CCJ: Is it true that you flew two 25 hour tour extensions after your 25th victory, and that you never were involved in a single combat during that time?

RSJ: Basically, yes. I took a 25-hour extension with the idea that as soon as I got 2 more enemy aircraft, I would stop there and go home. After the 25 hours were up and I hadn't had a chance to even fire at an enemy airplane, I took another 25 hour extension under the same understanding. Finally, on the last mission of that tour, I got two more and they sent me home.

CCJ: Why do you think that German fighters became so hard to come by at that time. When was that, in April and May of 1944?

RSJ: I can't say for sure, but we now know that the long range of the P-38 and P-51 caused the Luftwaffe to pull back many of their fighter squadrons deep into Germany. This makes sense when you think that we could put up over 600 P-47s for a ramrod. If they pull back beyond the range of the Jugs, we won't see much of them. Another thing was simple bad luck. When the Germans did come up to fight, they attacked the bombers well away from our assigned area. So, it really was a combination of factors.

CCJ: So, what was the date of your last two victories?

RSJ: May 8th, 1944.

CCJ: Well, Bob, I'll let you go now. Thanks for your time. This will make for a terrific article.

RSJ: It was my pleasure.

CCJ: Are you up for another discussion in a week or two?

RSJ: If you don't mind my long stories, sure. You can call almost anytime.

CCJ: Believe me, it's an honor for me. By the way, Art Heiden, you remember me talking about Art, Art wants to talk to you about Jack. Do you mind if I pass your number to him?

RSJ: Please do.

CCJ: Well, thanks again and have a good evening.

RSJ: You to.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2006, 01:36:11 PM »
Amazing Widewing.  You are definitely fortunate to have had those experiences.
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Offline Platano

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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2006, 06:26:09 PM »
WideWing that was truly amazing...

Can you post up some more?

I love reading those interviews...

BTW what does mushing mean?
He said somthing about his jug mushing when he tried to reverse..
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Offline VooWho

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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2006, 07:37:11 PM »
mushing? maybe when the plane vibrates do to stall? But those were some great stories. To bad I haven't gotten the chance to personally meet some ww2 pilots but I did have some come to my class and talk about there experiances.
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2006, 08:10:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Platano
WideWing that was truly amazing...

Can you post up some more?

I love reading those interviews...

BTW what does mushing mean?
He said somthing about his jug mushing when he tried to reverse..


Mushing, within the context Johnson used, described how the aircraft responded to aft stick pressure. The plane would rotate in its pitch axis, but it would not immediately change direction, mushing rather than turning. Probably related to slipstream factors off of the prop.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Stang

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« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2006, 08:34:09 PM »
Holy crap Widewing, wow!

:eek:

Offline Fencer51

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« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2006, 08:50:34 PM »
Widewing,

That is amazing.  I would encourage you to make several copies of all that you have, and put some in a safety deposit box.  I would also ask if you have considered donating copies to the United States Air Force Musem and/or the 8th Air Force Museum with the appropriate documentation as to who what where and when.  With the loss of each veteran the material you have becomes priceless.

Cheers,
Fencer
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Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2006, 09:08:25 PM »
dan, widewing, those were really great, huge

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Offline Dichotomy

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« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2006, 09:17:35 PM »
Indeed

My opinion this thread should be stickied
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2006, 11:07:27 PM »
Thanks Widewing.  You didn't dissapoint as I knew you wouldn't :)
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Offline noTch

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« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2006, 12:04:47 AM »
what makes you a great fighter pilot?

no strike that last question!  I like the question my wife would ask:  Would take me for a ride in your favorite combat plane?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 12:44:37 AM by noTch »
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Offline pipz

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« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2006, 09:08:03 AM »
Now thats the kind of stuff I like to read.Great articles fellaz.

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Pipz
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Offline LEADPIG

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« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2006, 03:30:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
I've had a chance to talk to lots of vets over the years and collect their stories.  Probably the proudest moment I've ever had outside of my family is this picture taken at the first reunion of 41 Squadron at RAF Coltishall in 1986.  I'd researched the Spit XII for about 6 years to that point and tracked down all the pilots I could find, which lead to helping with the reunion and then getting to fly to England to take part.

I was the only non WW2 Spit pilot in the group photo that was taken in front of the B of B flight Spit II that was in 41 Squadron colors.  The pilots asked that I be included.  Talk about proud and humbled.  They also got me in the cockpit of that Spit which wasn't normally allowed.  Sadly many of these guys are now gone.

I'll never forget sitting with them in the Coltishall OC with a pint in my hand listening to them talk and how they seemed to step back in time as they told their stories.  Being allowed to see that was an incredible privilage.  Even more humbling was when they'd ask me if they had the story right.  I'd been living it daily through their letters and I was able to fill in the details they'd missed.

Again, outside of family this was probably the best thing I've ever experienced.  Getting allowed into that circle and being considered part of them, if even for a couple days was really something.  I still have my 41 Squadron tie, that only 41 Squadron members are allowed to have :)



Dan your a type rated Spit pilot ??? :O :aok

Offline LEADPIG

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« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2006, 03:43:27 PM »
Widewing you should truly write a book, i'd buy it in a heartbeat, do you have enough material for one ?? :aok