Author Topic: flying to the elbow  (Read 612 times)

Offline df54

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flying to the elbow
« on: November 11, 2006, 11:46:56 PM »
does anyone have any films that illustrate ''Flying to the elbow".Schatzi explained it means flying to the 'High six'. That sounds like a high yo-yo.

Offline Mace2004

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Re: flying to the elbow
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2006, 08:40:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by df54
does anyone have any films that illustrate ''Flying to the elbow".Schatzi explained it means flying to the 'High six'. That sounds like a high yo-yo.


Flying to the "elbow" is simply slang for getting to the target's extended six o'clock position.  It comes from bar flying....you know, when you're using your hands in the bar shooting watches and describing how you just waxed someone's axx.  Well, if your hand is the "plane" your elbow is its extended six.  

Why are bars and elbows important?  They aren't...well, they are but they aren't.  What is important is the concept of the extended six position.  The correct term for this is the Control Point or Control Zone.  Basically, visualize a cone of space that begins at the tail of the target, extends straight out his six, and is about plus/minus 45 deg wide.  I'd say for the prop planes in AH the Control Zone is the area inside that cone from maybe d200 to d800.  It's very difficult to shake someone in that zone and, once there, you pretty much control the fight.  

A big mistake lots make is they are always pulling directly AT the target when in fact, it's usually better to be pulling to a position behind the target, or the "elbow", so you can get into the Control Zone.  This is important all the time and it's especially critical during either rolling or flat scissors.
Mace
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Offline Badboy

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Re: Re: flying to the elbow
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2006, 11:51:51 AM »
Hi Mace,

Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
A big mistake lots make is they are always pulling directly AT the target when in fact, it's usually better to be pulling to a position behind the target, or the "elbow", so you can get into the Control Zone.  This is important all the time and it's especially critical during either rolling or flat scissors.

Very nice explanation.

I thought I had a diagram that might help to clarify that, but I could only find this one, ignore the questions in there and I think it may be close enough to to illustrate the point.



Hope that helps...

Badboy
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Offline humble

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Actually this is completely wrong.....
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2006, 01:18:58 PM »
Flying to the elbow is a phrase (and tactic) probably made famous by Robert Johnson. I believe the comment was specific to his famous "duel" with a spitfire but it was a tactic he commonly used in combat as well.

If you view a turn as a curve layed out with your bent arm what Johnson (and other jug pilots) would do is to pull up and roll away  from the direction of the turn placing themselfs in an inverted position with there lift vector pointed at a spot ahead of the con. This placed them in a position that they could pull thru in the vertical and "drive for the elbow" of the turn.  It allowed them to use the jugs tremendous roll and rudder and elevator authority to routinely defeat planes that could out turn them.

I've seen the reference to its representaion as flying to a point of lag pursuit many times on the net but never used that way by a WW2 aviator. It's original use was specific to using an out of plane manuever to defeat a better turning con by utilzing a superior roll rate to place your lift vector at the "elbow" of your bogies turn. This is an aggresive vertical lead pursuit.

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Actually this is completely wrong.....
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2006, 09:40:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
Flying to the elbow is a phrase (and tactic) probably made famous by Robert Johnson. I believe the comment was specific to his famous "duel" with a spitfire but it was a tactic he commonly used in combat as well.

If you view a turn as a curve layed out with your bent arm what Johnson (and other jug pilots) would do is to pull up and roll away  from the direction of the turn placing themselfs in an inverted position with there lift vector pointed at a spot ahead of the con. This placed them in a position that they could pull thru in the vertical and "drive for the elbow" of the turn.  It allowed them to use the jugs tremendous roll and rudder and elevator authority to routinely defeat planes that could out turn them.

I've seen the reference to its representaion as flying to a point of lag pursuit many times on the net but never used that way by a WW2 aviator. It's original use was specific to using an out of plane manuever to defeat a better turning con by utilzing a superior roll rate to place your lift vector at the "elbow" of your bogies turn. This is an aggresive vertical lead pursuit.


We could debate the origins of slang ad nausium as it's continually changing and "elbow" may very well have meant something different 60 years ago; however, your description of this maneuver isn't very clear.  

I'm assuming the attack is coming from within the target's turn circle (i.e., target turning into the attack).  Saying the attacker would pull up and roll away from the direction of turn appears to describe a barrell roll attack (assuming you're saying he continues his roll away from the turn).  If the end position of the maneuver is outside of the target's turn radius it's just a lag roll.  

If, after the attacker "rolls away" from the turn he then reverses enough to go inverted he's simply doing a vertical reversal.  All turns are tightened by going nose high so there's no magic there, and yes, a poorer turning aircraft can stay with the better turner by doing this and an airplane with good roll and pitch performance is using its strengths.  

Also, it's not clear how the target's turn can be described as having an "elbow" unless you assume he's also using the vertical.  The "elbow" in my description is simply describing a point in space, is this what you're doing or are you talking about the target's actual flight path?  I can definitely see the attacker's flight path as having the perception of an elbow since his turn radius is signficantly reduced over the top giving the impression of a sharp turn (elbow) vice a steady radius arc.
Mace
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Offline humble

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flying to the elbow
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2006, 10:50:56 AM »
Basically it is a lag roll....I know the tactic is described in Shaws book and elsewhere. Basically as the con begins a break turn the aggressor goes vertical and rolls (roughly 45 degree's) away from the turn....placing his lift vector in front of the cons path and pulling thru in the vertical. This completely eliminates any "turn" by the jug which is using its roll and elevator authority instead. In decribing his duel with the spitty he specifically comments on the spit driver looking up and seeing "all 8 guns" {best I can remember quote} droping down on him. He then commented on how he and his fellow pilots used this tactic to "drive to the elbow" of the jerries turn. Basically I think its technically called a vector roll attack {no clue if thats shaws description}....but clearly its a lag roll with a pull thru....its the cons continuation of the turn that creates the offensive lead pursuit.

I'm in no way arging the validity of the facts presented. "Doctrine" always calls for lag pursuit when in a superior position. The only time you should ever be in lead pursuit is when manuevering for a shot. The contrast between what Johnson read and described is however significantly different and in that context was a very specific tactic developed to utilize the strengths of the P-47 against the better turning 109's. It can be used by any plane with both a high roll rate and very good rudder and elevator authority. I beleive he describes it in his book "thunderbolt" as well as such....

I found this link on google but it didnt download as of yet....its a 174 page PDF file...

http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf

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Offline calan

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flying to the elbow
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2006, 09:12:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble

I found this link on google but it didnt download as of yet....its a 174 page PDF file...

http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf


Fantastic and highly useful article!

Offline DamnedRen

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flying to the elbow
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 06:41:50 PM »
Here's the KISS principle of Flying to the elbow.

Tie a string to the end of a pencil. Tie the other end to a pin. Draw a circle using the string. Consider that circle as your planes best turn radius.

The exact center of the circle is the Elbow.  If you cut inside the Elbow you will not be able to pull enough lead on the turning plane.

If you extend outside the Elbow you will lag too much.

Flying to the Elbow will put provide you angles to pull lead onto his 6.

Hope this helps.

Offline Badboy

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Re: Actually this is completely wrong.....
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2006, 01:18:54 PM »
Humble,

The response posted by Mace2004 was not completely wrong... On the contrary it was completely correct. If you look at your arm. Your hand represents your opponent. Your elbow is where you want to be. It is as simple as that.

Although it is slang, the term is well understood and is synonymous with the control zone and high six, and even appears in USAF training manuals.

Badboy
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Offline Badboy

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flying to the elbow
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2006, 01:25:10 PM »
DamnedRen,

Your explanation may be simple, but it is also incorrect. The elbow is a point behind the enemy aircraft, not the centre of a circle.

Badboy
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Offline humble

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Re: Re: Actually this is completely wrong.....
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2006, 02:25:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy
Humble,

The response posted by Mace2004 was not completely wrong... On the contrary it was completely correct. If you look at your arm. Your hand represents your opponent. Your elbow is where you want to be. It is as simple as that.

Although it is slang, the term is well understood and is synonymous with the control zone and high six, and even appears in USAF training manuals.

Badboy


I'm not arguing that it is now widely accepted as such, or that the "concept" itself is in anyway incorrect. I'm simply stating that the original reference was specific to attacking a break turn by "driving to the elbow" of the turn. This tactic was used originally by the Jug drivers flying bomber escort in the early phase of the US bombing offensive when the size and quality of german opposition was highest. These same pilots utilized the same tactic when many of them transitioned to ponies and later these are the same guys who in fact "wrote the book".

The "fly to the elbow" doctrine is very basic and a part of "ACM 101" {which in no way diminishes its value}. The concept of driving to the elbow goes to the heart of complex ACM between dissimiliar aircraft....which is the cornerstone of true aircombat. Outside of conflicts like the "soccer war" same plane on plane true combat is non existant. In fact "flying to the elbow can very well get you killed.

A good example is a spit vs pony duel. A pony in a 315 mph 2 g turn will out turn a spit all day long if the spit flies to the elbow he'll never see the hand....in fact the pony will eat the spit up.....

I happened to read an account by Robert Johnson back when I was a trainer and actually fooled with it alot fighting spit V's etc....I'm not arguing the use or validity of the phrase as its accepted. Just pointing out that its "original" meaning was in fact a bit different and also has value....especially when you spring it on a spit 8 driver who doesnt see it coming:)

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson