.38 Keyholing in .357 Mag Revolver

[Halo]

Any of you have problems with keyholing when shooting .38 shells in a .357 revolver?  

I don't recall that problem with a single-action Ruger .357/.38 Blackhawk long ago, but on two separate days I've gotten some vertical keyholing at 7 yards with my double-action Ruger .357/.38 Security-Six.  

I got keyholing from Atlanta Arms & Ammo 148-gr DEWC as well as its 125-gr JHP.  Usually it was about three of 10 shots.  In some 10-round targets the keyholes tapered off on the bottom toward 5:30 on a clockface; in others, the keyholes were shorter and toward 12:30.  

I should have noted whether every 10 rounds had keyholes, but it didn't dawn on me I might have a problem until I was studying only the relatively few targets I kept.  

In the same revolver, .357s shoot nice neat holes.  I've been trying several pistols in various calibers and they also shoot nice neat holes.  

Googling doesn't immediately reveal much on this specific problem, but I saw a brief reference buried in other items about .38 bullets having to leap an extra 1/8 inch in a .357 Magnum revolver, which might cause occasional keyholing.

When I thought about it, that makes sense.  The Ruger rimfire .22 WMR / 22 LR convertible has two cylinders.  The centerfire .357 and .44 Magnums allow lesser kindred rounds to be fired in the same cylinder.

So I'm wondering three things:

1.  Are any of you experiencing this problem?  If so, what do you do about it (e.g., live with it, fix it somehow, what)?  

2. Does it seem to be a universal phenomenon with two different calibers sharing the same cylinder?

3.  Does it also apply to carbines that fire .357/.38 not from cylinders?  If not, why not, e.g., does the tube feed allow both sizes to snuggle without the 1/8-inch difference in the .357/.38 cylinder?  

I'm thinking about getting a .357/.38 carbine -- maybe trading my .357/.38 revolver or maybe separately -- but either way I'd like to get a better fix on what's going on with this keyholing.

[FrodeMk3]

I used to shoot my dad's 6-in. .357/.38 blackhawk a little. I noticed that the worst accuracy would come from .38 wadcutters...but these are low-powered rounds anyway, so I don't ever expect much from them. I've never range-shot it, always bottles and cans out at his property.

     I have seemed to notice, that in the recent yrs., that ammo quality seems to degrade(well, cheap plinking ammo gets cheaper, anyway.)
The better Federal, CCI, W-W and Remington loads have gotten expensive to the point that I keep 'em in the closet for an emergency, rather than shooting them up at the range.

     It might also be a function of Barrel/Cylinder wear. I'm not sure how many rounds you've shot through the gun, but I know that it can be a factor, as well.

[storch]

not in the sp101

[john9001]

dan wesson 357, 4" barrel, never had a keyhole, even with cheap reloaded wadcutter 38's... dead accurate.

[Halo]

Ah, wadcutters!  (Thumps forehead with heel of right hand.)   Yeah, both loads were wadcutters.  But some of you say your wadcutters do not keyhole.  

Hmmm, got the gun used, traded a lightweight .38 for it.  So I don't know its history.  Gun shop is reputable, though.  

Maybe (sigh) I just have a shot-gun (meaning past its expiration date).  

[lazs2]

stability of any round has to do with velocity and bullet profile and shape and....  twist of rifling.

Many guns have a slower twist rate to stablilze heavy bullets that are going fast and have a lot of bearing area.   when you try to push a slower, lighter round through the same barrel you will not be able to stabilize it.

This is generaly not a problem with the relatively short barrels of handguns but....  when you shoot shorter rounds out of the cyl, like wadcutters of 38's out of a 357.. you increase the problem.  

You need to up the speed or weight of the 38's

lazs

[Halo]

I went over to the indoor range around noon today with a box of Independence .38 130-grain FMJ to compare with the wadcutters and see if that would solve my keyholing problem.

I was delayed about a half hour by a conversation at home.

As I got to the door, one of the range guys was shooing out two customers and said the range was temporarily closed because of a "significant event" or some such intentionally innocuous term connoting a serious problem somewhere.

He said hang around and they would open shortly.  

I asked the two guys what happened and one said some kind of range accident, he thought.  He said a light went out and they were asked to leave.  The other guy said nothing.  

After a couple minutes we heard sirens, up came a fire truck, an ambulance, and a police car.  Another range guy opened the door and said they were closed for the day.  Another range guy talking to the cop said, "He was unresponsive."

I'll read in the newspaper tomorrow what happened.  I haven't heard about any serious problems at the range since it opened years ago.  Could be anything.  

Sometimes other things take precedence over a keyholing problem.

[storch]

sounds like when some FBI guys were shooting their MP5s and accidentally shot a patron here a few years ago.

[Halo]

Went back to the range today.  Range people were just as tight-lipped as before, refusing to say anything about the incident (which is called stonewalling, but an effective tactic -- at least early in problem scenarios -- for private enterprises).

Good news everything seems back to normal, and nothing in the newspaper, so maybe things were not as serious as it seemed yesterday.

I fired five rounds of .38 wadcutter.  Result: some keyholing.

I fired five rounds of .38 Independence FMJ 130-gr.  Result:  SUCCESS, no keyholing.

I fired five rounds of .357 Magnum Independence JSP 158-gr.  Result:  no keyholding (which had always been the case with .357 since that load was never wadcutters).

Verdict:  this gun does not like wadcutters.  Therefore, won't fire them anymore.

Bad news:  two of the .357 shells wouldn't eject.  (See new thread Revolver Shell Ejection Problem).

[Halo]

Update on the range closure Monday.  Today's (Thursday) local newspaper, in medium-sized story on front page, said a woman rented a gun, bought ammo, "and then went inside the firing range where she took her own life."

"The manager ... said this was the first time something like this had happened at the ... range."

Rest of the story focused on suicides in general and nothing more about the range.

Hope this doesn't spawn any opportunistic litigation that threatens either the range or its gun rental.

[storch]

Originally posted by Halo
Update on the range closure Monday.  Today's (Thursday) local newspaper, in medium-sized story on front page, said a woman rented a gun, bought ammo, "and then went inside the firing range where she took her own life."

"The manager ... said this was the first time something like this had happened at the ... range."

Rest of the story focused on suicides in general and nothing more about the range.

Hope this doesn't spawn any opportunistic litigation that threatens either the range or its gun rental.

I hope so also but you can almost bet an ambulance chaser is already in contact with the next of kin.

[GtoRA2]

All the local ranges here won't rent a single person a gun. You have to be a pair or more. This all people renting guns to kill themselves.



Target masters here has had 3 over the years.

Havnt these people heard of razor blades or tall buildings? Hell the Golden Gate isnt that far.

[Maverick]

Halo,

You miught also do a couple tests to see if it is a particular chamber that has the keyholing. It could be a missalignment that is made severe by the wadcutter design. It cold also be a larger than spec chamber opening at the end of the chamber by the forcing cone that allows the bullet to get cockeyed on firing before it engages the rifling. Does one chamber spray lead particles? It would take a bit of work to find out but might shed light on why it isn't most or every .38 wadcutter that keyholes. It may also highlight the need for some tuning of the revolver.

[Halo]

I've shipped the Security-Six to Ruger for the .357 shell extraction problem and also mentioned the occasional keyholing.  I'm hoping it will be a one-stop general renovation.

[Halo]

Got my Ruger Security-Six .357 revolver back from Ruger seven weeks after I shipped it to them.  

Ruger fixed the shell extraction and keyholing by replacing the barrel, repairing the cylinder, replacing some internal components, and even refinishing and reblueing it.

My cost was $47 to UPS it next day air in accordance with gun shipment law.

I've owned five Rugers over the years, including this revolver from a trade this year.  This revolver was made in 1977.  How many companies stand behind their product 29 years later?  That's what I call pride of product and company integrity.  Thanks, Ruger!