Author Topic: Influences in fighter design  (Read 599 times)

Offline skycaptn

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Influences in fighter design
« on: December 17, 2006, 08:28:20 AM »
I want to pick some of you history buffs brains about design influences.  Specifically gun packages on fighter aircraft.

Americans seem to have primarily stuck with multiple .50 cal packages as bomber interception was limited in europe and japans aircraft where mostly paper.  The exceptions being the 38 series a few corsairs and the p39 series. There seems to be a tendency twards wild designs with massive gun packages though (4 37mm's in a few designs)

Germany from the begining included cannons on all aircraft as well as light to medium machine guns. Then later the influence of american bombers seems to upgrade the gun types of the fighters using heavier and heavier cannons.

Japan is a mystery to me though... I can find little history of air combat before WWII that is significant yet their aircraft are all built very type and style specific (lightweight in a nutshell)
Only latewar did they even including anything larger then a .50 machine gun on aircraft..

Any thoughts on this?

Offline Greebo

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2006, 08:59:06 AM »
The Japanese Navy used 20mm cannon on their aircraft from the beginning of the Pacific war. The A6M2 had two low mv 20mms and even bombers like the Betty had a 20mm for defence. The Japanese Army OTOH began the war with two rifle calibre guns on their fighters and later moved on to a mix of these and 0.5in ones. Only late in the war did they field 20mm cannons, although these were better than the navy's cannon. The IJNAF and IJAAF rarely cooperated on anything as they hated each other almost as much as the enemy. So the Japanese Air Forces ended up with a large variety of incompatible ammo types for their aircraft.

Offline Ball

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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2006, 10:16:16 AM »
The Japanese had the benefit of seeing how the air war over europe was developing and the lessons learned by their allies, did the IJN have any aircraft in service which carried cannon prior to 1939?

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2006, 03:06:33 PM »
Not even the germans had aircraft with cannon prior to 1939. The 109s had 2x 7mm or 4x 7mm up until the E-1 in 1940. MG/FF only came with the release of the E-3, and were retro-fitted after that to all planes that could take them (but some E-1s retained 7mms in the wings, evident in photos, and flew alongside E-3s/E-4s)

Offline skycaptn

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2006, 03:49:22 PM »
thx guys

Offline Ball

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2006, 03:55:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Not even the germans had aircraft with cannon prior to 1939. The 109s had 2x 7mm or 4x 7mm up until the E-1 in 1940. MG/FF only came with the release of the E-3, and were retro-fitted after that to all planes that could take them (but some E-1s retained 7mms in the wings, evident in photos, and flew alongside E-3s/E-4s)


so the japanese didn't either?

Offline FrodeMk3

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2006, 05:04:39 PM »
Skycaptn, try this link for the answers you are looking for:

www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

If that doesn't work, the Website is by Anthony G. Williams, titled:

CANNON,MACHINEGUNS AND AMMUNITION

(Just like that, in caps.)

Has LOTS of info on machineguns, light AA and fighter cannon.

Offline Whisky58

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2006, 05:59:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ball
The Japanese had the benefit of seeing how the air war over europe was developing and the lessons learned by their allies, did the IJN have any aircraft in service which carried cannon prior to 1939?


The first operational IJN type to have cannons was A6M1 which first flew April 1939.  Any ideas whether there were experimental models before this?
Ki-27 was main pre-war Japanese (army) fighter which had x2 7.7mm, & Ki-27 pilots claimed huge numbers of Chinese & Russian kills in 1939. Difficult to believe with those guns.
Whisky

Offline Treize69

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2006, 06:23:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Whisky58
The first operational IJN type to have cannons was A6M1 which first flew April 1939.  Any ideas whether there were experimental models before this?
Ki-27 was main pre-war Japanese (army) fighter which had x2 7.7mm, & Ki-27 pilots claimed huge numbers of Chinese & Russian kills in 1939. Difficult to believe with those guns.


I think a big factor in the IJAAF doing so well against the Chinese and Russians was a combination of pilot skill (as rigorous as Japanese pilot training was in the '30s, their pilots were probably just as good at shooting as they were at flying) and the opposition. A lot of obsolete biplanes and ealry monoplanes, all open cockpit and most unarmored.

Really not much different that WWI, they weren't flying against the planes that would be found a few years later, with the exception of the early I-16s, and even the russians learned their lesson and eventually upgraded the Rat with cannons and better armor.

USAAF and USN seemed to decide pretty early on that a battery of guns with a high rate of fire was preferable to fewer guns with more hitting power. Also, smaller guns allow you to carry more ammo that a larger gun with larger ammo. Eight M2 .50s, firing 800 rounds a minute each (6400 in a minute, almost 110 rounds a second), throws out a lot more lead in a hurry than four M2 20MMs firing 650 do (40 rounds in a second). Cannon might hit harder, but you stand a much better chance of multiple strikes over a target with that extra weight of fire. And if I was fighter pilot, I'd rather have 8 guns with 425 rounds per gun than 4 with 260.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 06:27:01 PM by Treize69 »
Treize (pronounced 'trays')- because 'Treisprezece' is too long and even harder to pronounce.

Moartea bolșevicilor.

Offline Ball

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2006, 01:59:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Whisky58
The first operational IJN type to have cannons was A6M1 which first flew April 1939.  Any ideas whether there were experimental models before this?


That is interesting, i wonder what made them decide to switch to cannon so early?

I think the reason the Americans did not switch to cannon in WWII is because they were not tasked with intercepting large, armoured bombers like the Japanese, Germans, British and Russians had to.  If the Americans had a Battle of Britain etc. then i think they would have changed.

Offline bozon

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« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2006, 06:33:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ball
That is interesting, i wonder what made them decide to switch to cannon so early?

I think the reason the Americans did not switch to cannon in WWII is because they were not tasked with intercepting large, armoured bombers like the Japanese, Germans, British and Russians had to.  If the Americans had a Battle of Britain etc. then i think they would have changed.

It seems like combat experience made nations switch to cannons. Japan and Germany had real combat experience with their airforces just before WWII. If I'm not mistaken, Britain started with mostly small calibers and switched directly to 20mm cannons as primary fighters weapons as a result of their early WWII experience.

The US saw the need for better firepower and that made them switch from 0.3 to 0.5 calibers and increase the number of mg. This affected the design of the P47 and led to the 8*0.5 loadout. Real, first hand experience would influence designs only from 43 onward after US joined the war. I think that the US had problems with the reliability or availability of thier 20mm cannons, which delayed their widespread installment. The guns experts might know better.
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storch

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2006, 09:11:29 AM »
the japanese were excellent aerial marksmen and would kill the chinese pilots.  a short well aimed burst was more than sufficient.  the 7.7mm and 12.7mm cailber guns were more than adequate for the meager opposition that china was able to muster in it's defense.  the japanese were doing fine until the americans showed up with their HO'n, ack running and gangbanging P40s.  :D

Offline Keiler

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2006, 09:30:13 AM »
You forgot "cherrypicking" :D

storch

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Influences in fighter design
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2006, 09:31:48 AM »
oops how careless of me. :D