Author Topic: A Dweeb by any other name...  (Read 1864 times)

Offline SkyRock

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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2006, 04:03:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BugsBunny
The Bismark was parked.  One lucky hit on the steering system was all the damage the planes managed
????parked????:confused:

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Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2006, 04:10:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyRock
????parked????:confused:

Yea parked,  if it had been in Switzerland it would have been in Neutral. ;)

Offline Spiked

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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2006, 04:13:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BugsBunny
It could turn without rudders.  It was parked when it got hit.  Do you know how many planes it took to get that one hit on a parked huge target?


Seem to recall reading somewhere there was like 11 or 12 Swordfish?  I could be mistaken .... its been awhile since i read about the Bismark.

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2006, 04:21:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BugsBunny
The Bismark was parked.  One lucky hit on the steering system was all the damage the planes managed


Determined to avenge the sinking of Hood, the British committed every possible unit to hunting down Bismarck. During the early evening of 24 May an attack was made by a small group of Swordfish biplane torpedo planes from No. 825 Naval Air Squadron of the aircraft carrier Victorious. One hit was scored, but caused only superficial damage to Bismarck’s armoured belt.

For some time Bismarck remained under long-distance observation by the British. At about 03.00 on 25 May, the ship took advantage of her opponents' zig-zagging and performed an almost three-quarter clockwise turn behind her pursuers to escape towards the east and then south-east. Contact was lost for four hours; however, perhaps in awe of British radar capabilities, it appears that the Germans did not realize their good fortune. For reasons still unclear, Lütjens transmitted a half-hour radio message to HQ, which was intercepted thereby giving the British time to work out roughly where he was heading. However, a plotting error made onboard King George V, now in pursuit of the Germans, incorrectly calculated Bismarck’s position and caused the chase to veer too far north. Bismarck was therefore able to make good time on 25 May/26 May in her unhindered passage towards France and protective air cover and destroyer escort. By now, though, fuel was becoming a major concern to both sides.

The British had a stroke of luck on 26 May. In mid-morning a Coastal Command Catalina reconnaissance aircraft from No. 209 Squadron RAF, which had flown over the Atlantic from its base on Lough Erne in Northern Ireland across a small corridor secretly provided by the Éire government, spotted Bismarck (via her oil-slick) and reported her position to the Admiralty. From then on, the German ship's position was known to the British, although the enemy would have to be slowed significantly if heavy units hoped to engage it out of range of German aircraft protection.

All British hopes were now pinned on Force H, whose main units were the aircraft-carrier Ark Royal, the old battlecruiser Renown and the cruiser Sheffield. This battle-group, commanded by Admiral James Somerville, had been diverted north from Gibraltar.

At dusk that evening, and in atrocious weather conditions, Swordfish from Ark Royal launched an attack. The first wave mistakenly targeted the Sheffield that was by now shadowing the quarry. Although precious time was lost by this incident, it proved beneficial to the British in that the magnetic detonators on the torpedoes used against Sheffield were seen to be defective and for the following attack on Bismarck were replaced by those designed to explode on contact. In a final attack, almost in darkness at around 21.00, a "miracle" hit by a single torpedo (launched by pilot John Moffat's plane) jammed Bismarck's rudder and steering gear. This rendered her virtually unmanoeuvrable, able only to steam in a large circle in the general direction of King George V and Rodney, two frontline battleships that had been pursuing Bismarck from the west. The largest and most powerful warship yet commissioned had now been rendered a sitting-duck by a single aircraft. After extensive efforts to free the jammed rudders, the fleet command finally acknowledged their by-now impossible position in several messages to naval headquarters. Lütjens promised that the ship would fight until its last shell was spent.

The Bismarck was NOT parked at the time it's rudder was deemed "frozen at 12 degrees to port" (I.E. being struck with the one or two fish).
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 04:24:10 PM by Masherbrum »
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Offline Squire

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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2006, 04:58:09 PM »
Its true that torpedo bombers attacking capital ships on the open ocean was not a tactic that lasted past the early years of the war, in the end, it was the carrier based fighters that made it too costly, as torp bombers were just too slow and vulnerable against interception. They had do come in low, and slow, to get into a position to attack. Pre-war thinking didnt take into account what the defending fighters on opposing CVs would do to the torpedo planes.

Dive bombers were not as vulnerable, as they came in with some alt, and dove almost straight down making them hard targets for both flak and fighters. Afterwards, they too were vulnerable to interception but they had a better likelyhood of returning.

...That being said torp bombers did have a few notable successes, in the Atlantic, Med and Pacific. They also had uses in launching strikes on fleets and other ships in harbors. Pearl Harbor is undoubtably the most spectacular success of torp bombers in WW2, but it was not to be repeated.

As for the Swordfish attack on Bismarck, it was only a single squadron, and Bismarck had a full head of steam and manuever when her rudder/stearing was hit.
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Offline Rino

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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2006, 05:17:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BugsBunny
It could turn without rudders.  It was parked when it got hit.  Do you know how many planes it took to get that one hit on a parked huge target?



     Once you are wrong, it's best to acknowledge it and move on.  The
Tirpitz was "parked" not the Bismarck.
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2006, 05:24:37 PM »
Yep, mistaking Tirpitz for Bismarck
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2006, 05:34:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Yep, mistaking Tirpitz for Bismarck


I knew that, but wanted him to figure out the error that clouded his judgement.     Phan is t3h suk!
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Offline rod367th

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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2006, 05:50:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Determined to avenge the sinking of Hood, the British committed every possible unit to hunting down Bismarck. During the early evening of 24 May an attack was made by a small group of Swordfish biplane torpedo planes from No. 825 Naval Air Squadron of the aircraft carrier Victorious. One hit was scored, but caused only superficial damage to Bismarck’s armoured belt.

For some time Bismarck remained under long-distance observation by the British. At about 03.00 on 25 May, the ship took advantage of her opponents' zig-zagging and performed an almost three-quarter clockwise turn behind her pursuers to escape towards the east and then south-east. Contact was lost for four hours; however, perhaps in awe of British radar capabilities, it appears that the Germans did not realize their good fortune. For reasons still unclear, Lütjens transmitted a half-hour radio message to HQ, which was intercepted thereby giving the British time to work out roughly where he was heading. However, a plotting error made onboard King George V, now in pursuit of the Germans, incorrectly calculated Bismarck’s position and caused the chase to veer too far north. Bismarck was therefore able to make good time on 25 May/26 May in her unhindered passage towards France and protective air cover and destroyer escort. By now, though, fuel was becoming a major concern to both sides.

The British had a stroke of luck on 26 May. In mid-morning a Coastal Command Catalina reconnaissance aircraft from No. 209 Squadron RAF, which had flown over the Atlantic from its base on Lough Erne in Northern Ireland across a small corridor secretly provided by the Éire government, spotted Bismarck (via her oil-slick) and reported her position to the Admiralty. From then on, the German ship's position was known to the British, although the enemy would have to be slowed significantly if heavy units hoped to engage it out of range of German aircraft protection.

All British hopes were now pinned on Force H, whose main units were the aircraft-carrier Ark Royal, the old battlecruiser Renown and the cruiser Sheffield. This battle-group, commanded by Admiral James Somerville, had been diverted north from Gibraltar.

At dusk that evening, and in atrocious weather conditions, Swordfish from Ark Royal launched an attack. The first wave mistakenly targeted the Sheffield that was by now shadowing the quarry. Although precious time was lost by this incident, it proved beneficial to the British in that the magnetic detonators on the torpedoes used against Sheffield were seen to be defective and for the following attack on Bismarck were replaced by those designed to explode on contact. In a final attack, almost in darkness at around 21.00, a "miracle" hit by a single torpedo (launched by pilot John Moffat's plane) jammed Bismarck's rudder and steering gear. This rendered her virtually unmanoeuvrable, able only to steam in a large circle in the general direction of King George V and Rodney, two frontline battleships that had been pursuing Bismarck from the west. The largest and most powerful warship yet commissioned had now been rendered a sitting-duck by a single aircraft. After extensive efforts to free the jammed rudders, the fleet command finally acknowledged their by-now impossible position in several messages to naval headquarters. Lütjens promised that the ship would fight until its last shell was spent.

The Bismarck was NOT parked at the time it's rudder was deemed "frozen at 12 degrees to port" (I.E. being struck with the one or two fish).





 just wondering if bugsbunney hooked you. Or just not bright enough to google without parents?

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2006, 06:06:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rod367th
just wondering if bugsbunney hooked you. Or just not bright enough to google without parents?


It'll be his "comeback".   I'm not the one who said "the Bismarck was parked", HE DID.   He got confused in his attempt "to troll another one of Karaya's posts" and he AGAIN got stung.   Kinda funny if you ask me.
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Offline Rino

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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2006, 06:43:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I knew that, but wanted him to figure out the error that clouded his judgement.     Phan is t3h suk!


     I may be t3h suk!, but at least I know the way to Candy Mountain! :D
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Offline Overlag

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« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2006, 07:14:13 PM »
one of the reasons the swordfish aircraft had such good "luck" was bismark's new "elite" AAA guns couldn't effectively follow such a slow moving target.... Ie it was designed with 200mph torpedo bombers in mind, not the 90mph swordfish.

....at least that's what i read somewhere... could be just a myth. :)



the ship also didn't sink by enemy fire, only 1 shell passed through the ship below the waterline. The British got too close when they wanted to finish it off, and most shots made dents on the hull... a long range diving shot would have been needed its what killed hood... terrible deck armour, and a shell landing at around 40degrees through the deck and into magazine.

one of the only other holes through the main hull was from the encounter with Hood and Prince of Wales. A shell from Prince of Wales went through the bow, causing her to loose fuel, and reduce speed.

most of the damage from shells was to the superstructure.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 08:18:28 PM by Overlag »
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2006, 07:14:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
I may be t3h suk!, but at least I know the way to Candy Mountain! :D


:rofl
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Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2006, 07:41:37 PM »
Ive read its possible the Bismarck may have taken upwards of 400 large caliber rounds. Thats 14"/16" variety.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2006, 07:47:36 PM »
Regardless of the final cause of the Bismark's sinking, it cannot be denied that her fate was sealed by those torpedos that were dropped by the attacking Swordfishes.  It also cannot be argued that it was "parked" like a certain waskely wabbit claimed.



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