Author Topic: Freedom is Gone?  (Read 2391 times)

Offline lasersailor184

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Freedom is Gone?
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2006, 06:22:14 PM »
Chairboy, it was the democrats who did that.  I jumped at BSDaddict because he said it was Bush that did it.

Quote
Rights are God given. Man can only take them away.


God gave us the ability to have rights.  He didn't give them to us.

It's up to us to make sure we keep them.
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8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline VOR

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« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2006, 06:34:29 PM »
It won't "legally" happen again

H.R.5441
Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act, 2007 (Enrolled as
Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)

42 U.S.C. SEC. 706. FIREARMS POLICIES.
(a) PROHIBITION ON CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS- No officer or employee
of the United States (including any member of the uniformed
services), or person operating pursuant to or under color of Federal
law, or receiving Federal funds, or under control of any Federal
official, or providing services to such an officer, employee, or
other person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster
or emergency, may-

(1) temporarily or permanently seize, or authorize seizure of, any
firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal,
State, or local law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with
Federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation;
(2) require registration of any firearm for which registration is not
required by Federal, State, or local law;
(3) prohibit possession of any firearm, or promulgate any rule,
regulation, or order prohibiting possession of any firearm, in any
place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise
prohibited by Federal, State, or local law; or
(4) prohibit the carrying of firearms by any person otherwise
authorized to carry firearms under Federal, State, or local law,
solely because such person is operating under the direction, control,
or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from the
major disaster or emergency.

(b) LIMITATION- Nothing in this section shall be construed to
prohibit any person in subsection (a) from requiring the temporary
surrender of a firearm as a condition for entry into any mode of
transportation used for rescue or evacuation during a major disaster
or emergency, provided that such temporarily surrendered firearm is
returned at the completion of such rescue or evacuation.

(c) PRIVATE RIGHTS OF ACTION-

(1) IN GENERAL- Any individual aggrieved by a violation of this
section may seek relief in an action at law, suit in equity, or other
proper proceeding for redress against any person who subjects such
individual, or causes such individual to be subjected, to the
deprivation of any of the rights, privileges, or immunities secured
by this section.
(2) REMEDIES- In addition to any existing remedy in law or equity,
under any law, an individual aggrieved by the seizure or confiscation
of a firearm in violation of this section may bring an action for
return of such firearm in the United States district court in the
district in which that individual resides or in which such firearm
may be found.
(3) ATTORNEY FEES- In any action or proceeding to enforce this
section, the court shall award the prevailing party, other than the
United States, a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs.'.

--

Note: H.R.5441 was signed into Law by President G. W. Bush on 4
October, 2006

Offline sluggish

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« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2006, 06:36:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy


How to control the population:

IN THE OLD DAYS
Religion - "God sez do this"

MODERN DAY
"It's for your own good" + "Don't be soft on crime/terrorism" + "What kind of american are you?"


You forgot to invoke the children.  As in, "But what about the children?" or "Don't you care about the children?" or "This will keep you children safe.  Don't you want your children to be safe?"

Offline dmf

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« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2006, 07:17:17 PM »
After reading that I'm happy to say I'm not suspect of being a terrorist, nor am I wanted in any state or locality, nor am i currently breaking any city state or federal laws. And I do not say anything over the phone that can be considered a terrorist act.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2006, 07:26:04 PM »
Don't worry, dmf.  That just makes you a moving target, they like a challenge.  :D
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2006, 09:29:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Chairboy, it was the democrats who did that.  I jumped at BSDaddict because he said it was Bush that did it.



God gave us the ability to have rights.  He didn't give them to us.

 


not according to the Declaration of Independance

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.  — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

— John Hancock

New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts:
John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut:
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York:
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey:
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware:
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland:
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia:
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina:
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia:
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline FBBone

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« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2006, 12:16:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
God gave us the ability to have rights.  He didn't give them to us.


I, and the founding fathers, might disagree.

 didn't get to Dreds post, thanks, my point exactly

Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2006, 05:31:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
 Also, how do you know that the drug problems would not have ended up being a hundred times worse than they are now if no effort had been made to stop the flow and use of illicit drugs?  Your guessing when you say its been a dismal failure.

And booze is a tool of teh devil :D


Because if you want illegal drugs, you can get them.  Anywhere in the USA, illegal drugs are easily aquired if you seek them.  Therefore, the war on drugs is a big waste of money and a dismal failure.

Offline red26

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« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2006, 09:00:33 AM »
1-right to privacy
2-right to due process
3-right to bear arms
4-right to free speech
5-right to travel freely

1- There is no one in my buissnes taping my phone and that kind of stuff.

2- No one has took my door down and searched my home.

3- I have all my wepons including my CHL so Im still good there.

4- I can still go down town and protest if need be ((AS long as its a peacefull protest)) and I can still type on here. And type on my E-mail talk on the phone and thats fine by me.

5- Ive been running around for years no one has stoped me exept for a traffic violation because no front licencs plate.

I dont worrie about this stuff because I'm not doing anything wrong. The only People that have to worrie about this is the people that have a reason to. Dont do things that will get you in trouble and you will be ok.:aok
US ARMY LEAD THE WAY

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2006, 09:25:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by red26
The only People that have to worrie about this is the people that have a reason to. Dont do things that will get you in trouble and you will be ok.:aok
Well intentioned naivety has rarely had a better spokesman.

Our rights are not contingent on our behavior or motivation, they are inalienable.  Mobsters have exactly the same constitutional protections that you do, and the reverse is equally true.  That might make you cluck disapprovingly, but our founding fathers knew that any system that allowed some folks to be more equal than others would inevitably be abused.

That is why our constitution explicitly FORBIDS well intentioned people from holding others down.  It is not a list of "good ideas" or "we suggest that...", it is a statement of purpose as to the nature of humanity and his/her essential liberties.  There is no wiggle room with these.

Evil is what happens when good men fail to act.  Good men usually fail to act when they can rationalize that the evil has, at its root, good intentions.  Accept one, and you necessarily embrace the other.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2006, 09:42:52 AM »
bsaddict... the mayor and gov of la/No were democrats and they are the ons who confiscated weapons...  worse.. the mayor refused to give em back... even worse.. they kept no record of the heists and now are saying that anyone who wants their legal gun back needs to show a reciept for these guns... some of which are a hundred or more years old and in the family for years.  

Bush appointed 2 SC justices that are pro constitution and 2nd amendment...  Bush allowed the "assault weapon" ban to sunset... Bush signed the protection of comerce bill for firearms manufacturers..  Bush just sighned the bill that was stated above to protect people from firearms seisures....  

All these bills and efforts were aided by pro gun rights republicans with the support of the NRA.   If you don't belong to the NRA then you have no right to whine.

Wake up... the NRA rates politicians...  about 5% of the republicans get failing grades on gun rights and about 90% of the democrats do.

As for libertarians and a "message"... the libertarians help republicans lose in a close race just as peace and freedom or the green party helps the democrats lose in an election..   they siphon off votes.

Neither the democrats or republicans are gonna get any "message" from the greens or the libertarians because they are tiny.  Both parties know that they can't cater to these groups or they will lose bigger more important blocks of votes.

lazs

Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2006, 01:42:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Chairboy, it was the democrats who did that.  I jumped at BSDaddict because he said it was Bush that did it.

lol, keep telling yourself that...  last I checked the Dems didn't have the authority to order BATF agents into the field, nor were they in a position to issues orders to the National Guard during that crisis. (they had been federalized at that point, IIRC) Even if Bush didn't issue the disarmament order directly, he could have stopped it.  He didn't.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 01:46:03 PM by bsdaddict »

Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2006, 01:45:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VOR
It won't "legally" happen again

knew about this, glad they got something right.

Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2006, 02:13:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by red26
1-right to privacy
2-right to due process
3-right to bear arms
4-right to free speech
5-right to travel freely

1- There is no one in my buissnes taping my phone and that kind of stuff.

2- No one has took my door down and searched my home.

3- I have all my wepons including my CHL so Im still good there.

4- I can still go down town and protest if need be ((AS long as its a peacefull protest)) and I can still type on here. And type on my E-mail talk on the phone and thats fine by me.

5- Ive been running around for years no one has stoped me exept for a traffic violation because no front licencs plate.

I dont worrie about this stuff because I'm not doing anything wrong. The only People that have to worrie about this is the people that have a reason to. Dont do things that will get you in trouble and you will be ok.:aok

this is basically the same reply mace made in that other thread...  basically you're saying that unless a particular law is applied to you directly, then it's all good.  I'm saying that the fact that laws are on the books allowing one thing or another, that's just as bad as if I'm directly affected.  

1 - How do you know noones tapping your phone?  They don't have to tell you.

2 - Your door may not have been broken down, but the doors of some of your fellow citizens have been.  But hey, so long as they're not breaking down YOUR door...

3 - You've got your weapons, sure.  But they've got bigger ones.

4 - Have you ever stood on a public sidewalk near a building where Bush was talking, peacefully just standing there holding a sign, had police show up and herd you into a "Free Speech Zone"?  I have.

5 - unable to fly if I don't submit.  that's not freedom.

Seriously though, why the need to prove how I specifically have had my rights violated?  I don't get it.    If a Federal mandate came down tomorrow ordering all firearms to be collected and destroyed, are the rights of the non-firearm owners being violated as well?  As far as I'm concerned the answer is yes.  When the rights of my fellow citizens are being violated, under color of law, THEN IT COULD HAPPEN TO ME AS WELL!!!  The simple fact that it may not have happened to me yet is not a factor.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 02:16:53 PM by bsdaddict »

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2006, 02:19:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
lol, keep telling yourself that...  last I checked the Dems didn't have the authority to order BATF agents into the field, nor were they in a position to issues orders to the National Guard during that crisis. (they had been federalized at that point, IIRC) Even if Bush didn't issue the disarmament order directly, he could have stopped it.  He didn't.


Just a point here,

The so called disarmament act was done at the city level, by nagin and his pet chief of police. The Feds were not involved. Bush has no authority over local agencies.

Please note I am definitely not in favor of what happened by any means, just not going to blame Bush for something he had no authority over. The responsible people were the mayor and his "most corrupt PD in the nation" run by a chief who likely should be up on multiple felony counts.
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