Author Topic: spit defense...... (Read 640 times)

humble · « **on:** December 13, 2006, 11:04:43 AM »

Happened to catch a good clip on this mornings "dawn patrol"...

I'm "bounced" by a higher spit....a couple of things I thought might be helpful to newer pilots.....

1) I let him put his cards on the table...I never try and climb into higher planes....especially spits, nikki's etc....

2) I give him my 6, to me this is actually less risky overall then reversing into him with that much E differential. I want him "locked in" not working his game from over me.

3) His speed apporaches 500 mph...and he's 120+ at the time of his 1st shot.....but by the time I 1st shoot he's 70 mph faster (~320/250) and by the time he's forced out in front we're less then 50 mph and I have the alt advantage which lets me catch up to him....

4) Even though I'm "neg E" you can see/hear me coming off both wep and the gas to work the angles and keep pressure on. You can see just how unimportant his speed advantage is.

This is a good illustration of why taking "top down" shot/attack profiles is such poor tactics. A good "reverse" is always set up by a poor attack.

spit defense

Clutz · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2006, 12:37:08 PM »

I understand this reverse you started at 0:20. But when I reverse like this I never wind up close to the fighter after the reverse is completed. But I never cut throttle because my thought is to keep speed up because the guy I am reversing is so much faster than I am. However, in another one of your films you did say cut back on throttle during this reverse move if my thought and memory is correct. (hits head with 2x4) duah.

So what I am wondering is did you cut your throttle when you went vertical? Maybe at 0:34? (the apex of your vertical) and did you use left rudder for the roll to the left at 0:35? Did you then use right rudder at 0:37 to move the nose of your plane back around? I guess what I am asking is how do you keep everything so nice and tight (close quarters) from 0:34 to 0:40.

Learning how to properly use the plane controls (throttle and rudder) and when to use them is very tricky. Ty very much, Clutz.

B@tfinkV · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2006, 12:50:38 PM »

here is a really usefull hint for throttle control on its most basic format, clutz

-when you going up put more power on.

-when you going down take some power off.

sounds almost too basic to be real advice, but i promise you this is the basis and starting point for every single throttle based move in the book.

as to humble's reverse move i would take a geuss that he is diving a little at full power to help equalise energy as the enemy dives on his six, then as he starts the barrel roll he is easing back as he climbs, chopping throttle completely as he rolls over the top, and adding power to provide a close enough snapshot or to start a vertical chase as the manouver finishes.

S!

Blagard · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2006, 12:59:29 PM »

The error was in the Spit pilot becoming fixated with your six! A better attack would have been for the Spit to use that E to close in fast from a low 6, but in any event if he still gets fixated and flys badly he will end up dead.

The high attack is not poor, it's just a question of what happens next. You saw him coming and made the right move to evade otherwise you should have been dead.

With that large inital E difference a simple Boom and Zoom would have been better for the Spit to use instead of turning so hard that he burnt off all his E! - Then tries to run away straight from a Hog after losing his advantage !

The defense was good and the film is fine for that. The attack overall was poor, but not because it was top down, that really finished after he came down to your alt! - Then it was a question of turning the tables when he did not go back up.

In fact the Spit did what most newbies will do when they forget to think about the whole situation and how getting into position is the key. Many with an E advantage will just pull hard on the stick to try and stay on some-ones six.

So Good defence Poor attack

humble · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2006, 01:17:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Clutz
I understand this reverse you started at 0:20. But when I reverse like this I never wind up close to the fighter after the reverse is completed. But I never cut throttle because my thought is to keep speed up because the guy I am reversing is so much faster than I am. However, in another one of your films you did say cut back on throttle during this reverse move if my thought and memory is correct. (hits head with 2x4) duah.

So what I am wondering is did you cut your throttle when you went vertical? Maybe at 0:34? (the apex of your vertical) and did you use left rudder for the roll to the left at 0:35? Did you then use right rudder at 0:37 to move the nose of your plane back around? I guess what I am asking is how do you keep everything so nice and tight (close quarters) from 0:34 to 0:40.

Learning how to properly use the plane controls (throttle and rudder) and when to use them is very tricky. Ty very much, Clutz.

I was off the gas later....only thing I saw around that time was wep on/off a couple of times. No rudder was needed early....the "tightness" is just the physics....his high e state carries him thru the overshoot and back up thu my flight path....he's covering more ground faster. Had he pulled lower g's thru the climb out he'd have topped me out....

humble · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2006, 01:42:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Blagard
The error was in the Spit pilot becoming fixated with your six! A better attack would have been for the Spit to use that E to close in fast from a low 6, but in any event if he still gets fixated and flys badly he will end up dead.

The high attack is not poor, it's just a question of what happens next. You saw him coming and made the right move to evade otherwise you should have been dead.

With that large inital E difference a simple Boom and Zoom would have been better for the Spit to use instead of turning so hard that he burnt off all his E! - Then tries to run away straight from a Hog after losing his advantage !

The defense was good and the film is fine for that. The attack overall was poor, but not because it was top down, that really finished after he came down to your alt! - Then it was a question of turning the tables when he did not go back up.

In fact the Spit did what most newbies will do when they forget to think about the whole situation and how getting into position is the key. Many with an E advantage will just pull hard on the stick to try and stay on some-ones six.

So Good defence Poor attack

I agree completely the attack was poorly executed, the basic setup that encouraged that poor attack was encouraged. Regardless of his actions there is no "should have been dead" scenario. Simply to much room for both sides to work with. Had he flown differently so would I, no question the that the spitfire had total control of the fight and chose poorly. However at some point the attacking bogie has to commit and there by become "vulnerable"....more kills are via forced overshoot then any other cause (IMO) in "MA" gameplay. As I stated above my goal was to manufacture this type of fight since it favors the plane I'm flying. My relatively late break and slow response to his attack drew him in to the shot....he could either extend or continue to engage. I had posted a similiar opening tactic in a different clip awhile ago...
"Pony Defense"

It wouldnt be tough to scrounge up numerous clips of me falling to the same tactics (hell blukitty or Greebo alone prob have a hundred:)).....

From my perspective as a former trainer the clips I'm posting here are intended to show some fundemental or another thats broadly applicable. This is strictly an ACM generated kill well within the capabilities of 90% of those who fly. Normally I'll post something short that shows a particular type of fight fairly well....

Here is a different version of the same defense (think I posted this earlier as well). Here I "deny" the merge and create the same basic chase scenario. As you correctly point out the spit should use his E...so he refuses my "suckershot" and goes Hi...which creates a neg E angles defense for me...which leads to a rolling scissors defense....which forces him out front.

similiar spit defense

The whole goal is to create a mental library of options for less experienced sticks to draw on. Once you run into a guy (creton/Nomak/Levi/FX1 as examples) who regularly counter those counters you move from guys like me to Greebo/Blukiity/Widewing/TC.....after all a mans got to know his limitations:)

Lye-El · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2006, 02:25:28 PM »

Nicely done.

Blagard · « **Reply #7 on:** December 13, 2006, 07:49:48 PM »

Humble

I totally agree with the idea to give out information on the fundamentals and your film certainly shows that good ACM can turn the tables.

The main reason I replied was because of the summation of "Top down" being a poor tactic. I thought that might suggest attacks from the top side are not a good idea.

The "should of been dead" comment was poorly phrased by me because if you did not see him coming and took no evasives you should be! Quite a few top down attacks can be successful because if the enemy does not see you coming due to poor SA or being too busy looking elsewhere!

All in all the information put forward can only help Newbies appreciate that fighting is a complex buisness that needs to be built on some fundamental understanding of ACM and your film information does indeed help because it does illustrate some classic tactical moves. - Don't ask for any of mine because I never seem to have the Cam on when I do a really good job!

Cheers
Blagard

VermGhost · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2006, 08:02:26 PM »

hey humble, any chance you could please upload those films again, I got the error, "bandwidth limit exceeded" on all of them. Younger stick here trying to see good counters in action

humble · « **Reply #9 on:** December 13, 2006, 08:16:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Blagard
Humble

I totally agree with the idea to give out information on the fundamentals and your film certainly shows that good ACM can turn the tables.

The main reason I replied was because of the summation of "Top down" being a poor tactic. I thought that might suggest attacks from the top side are not a good idea.

The "should of been dead" comment was poorly phrased by me because if you did not see him coming and took no evasives you should be! Quite a few top down attacks can be successful because if the enemy does not see you coming due to poor SA or being too busy looking elsewhere!

All in all the information put forward can only help Newbies appreciate that fighting is a complex buisness that needs to be built on some fundamental understanding of ACM and your film information does indeed help because it does illustrate some classic tactical moves. - Don't ask for any of mine because I never seem to have the Cam on when I do a really good job!

Cheers
Blagard

The only way to catch "the good stuff" is to just run the film all the time when your in that mind set. As a trainer here way back in the stone age of AH it became pretty clear that 80% of all bac ACM starts with two common faults...

1) the "top down" attack which sets up everything from overshoots to lost merges to augers. Every pilot I ever trained was well schooled in never even shooting "top down" in anything other then an "endgame". You need to look no farther then my own clip posted in MA (when band width comes back) to see the peril. Yukon gets me to make that mistake twice...he doesnt get a shot but he gets me to run into him and had I not hit him he's have had a very good chance of picking me....

I filmed a full set on my 'dusk patrol"....4 clips 6 kills (1 sortie) that is a good summary of the various stuff I put up. The 2nd clip is a proper execution of this type of attack. {will be up soon as I get bandwidth bumped up}.

humble · « **Reply #10 on:** December 13, 2006, 08:18:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by VermGhost
hey humble, any chance you could please upload those films again, I got the error, "bandwidth limit exceeded" on all of them. Younger stick here trying to see good counters in action

There still up, must have been alot of downloads on different clips (had to be 1000+ total to bust the bandwidth limit)....so somebody watching them at least:).

I've got 1 last set going up....then probably go to 109E or K1-61.

VermGhost · « **Reply #11 on:** December 13, 2006, 11:15:51 PM »

awesome, I just watched them and I see that when it gets to the faster merges, being able to control your speed to get onto an enemy's tail is really important. Trying to keep an eye on him and estimate where he will go so that you can be there to reverse and get on his tail seems really hard to me!