Author Topic: 50 cal ballistics/lethality  (Read 901 times)

Online Max

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50 cal ballistics/lethality
« on: December 15, 2006, 08:15:40 AM »
I've not wondered the WISHLIST forum before so let me excuse myself if this question has been hammered on before.

Having watched a number of actual WW2 gun camera films it seems as though that current 50 cal lethality modeling is less than what it actually was. I recall a dial back on 50 cal lethality when HTC made the switch from AH1 to AH2.
So my questions are:

1. What criterion is used to calculate lethality on 50 cals, or any MG/cannon rnd for that matter?

2. Have the 50 cals been dialed back?

3. If so, can they be undialed?

Thanks :aok

Offline wrag

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50 cal ballistics/lethality
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2006, 05:27:35 PM »
Word was that the 50cals in AH1 were as lethal as 20mm due to a error in the diameter of the round??????

Wasn't until AHII that the error was detected?
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Offline Major Biggles

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50 cal ballistics/lethality
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 05:51:00 PM »
50cals are uber. infact, i would rather have 6 50s than 2-4 20mm hispanos, if you shoot well, and get good round concentration, they tear parts off in an instant. i actually make more kills on snapshots with 50s than with cannons.

just need to track the shot and shoot at the right range :)

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Online Max

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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2006, 06:05:54 PM »
And the "right" range is............?

Offline E25280

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50 cal ballistics/lethality
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2006, 06:31:25 PM »
There are many threads addressing your basic question.  In a nutshell, the ammunition for all guns in AH are hybrid rounds that average the lethality of a "typical" belt that was used in WWII.

The use of or lack of a mine round on Luftwaffe cannons is where a lot of people have a problem with the "averaging" of ammunition because some would prefer the chance of a single round blowing off a tail vs knowing you need 3 rounds to do it . . . or some such thing.  

I think these things hav been discussed at length in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum moreso than the wishlist.  Try this one for example.
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Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2006, 07:37:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Max
And the "right" range is............?



whatever your convergence is at ;)

try 200-300 yrds, that's where i shoot. they take getting used to, but they are very uber if you get it right :)

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Offline OOZ662

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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2006, 11:09:47 PM »
I'm guessing the biggest issue is that AH doesn't use mixed belts of ammo. We have "hybrid" rounds that contain a little bit of the effects that each round would've had in the belt, like the Mine, AP, and HE rounds in the German birds. Maybe that doesn't apply to the .50, though. No idea.
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2006, 02:30:16 PM »
There are two issues at hand behind what's making the 50cals seem "weak" to some people in AH;


* The first one, is misconception.

 50cal machine guns primarily depend on kinetic impact for damage. While a few of the rounds may contain some HE content or incendiary qualities, it is hardly comparable with a contemporary cannon round in terms of destructive power. Ofcourse, the .50 round is massively potent, and will puncture through the plane's skin easily above extreme ranges.

 However as long as it depends on kinetic impact, it needs to hit something vital inside the plane to bring it down. This requires a concentrated burst of fire to land on a single spot, maximizing the firepower and the chance to hit vital internal machinery. If the shots are spread out, they may not do much more than drill a 50cal sized hole on the plane's skin. Cannons are very different. They are essentially small grenades lobbed at high speeds. The are designed to detonate on impact, ripping out entire surfaces of the plane's fuselage, wings, stabs, etc.. instead of relying on hitting anything vital.

 In many cases in AH, people either misjudge the amount of damage they've actually done, or have problems in landing concetrated shots.



* The second one, is an inherent problem in the DM.

 This is all speculation, since HT never confirmed how the DM works.. but if we continue, AH's damage modelling does not model internal machinery, and the damage is registered as "all or nothing".

 Imagine a real life situation where an enemy plane is hit with a deadly barrage of .50 rounds all over it. Like a miracle, none of those rounds have hit anything immediately fatal - such as the fuel tanks, engine, or the pilot. However, the chances are that the 50cals did hit something that might make it very difficult for the pilot to keep his plane in the air.

 For one thing, it would have punched numerous holes on the plane, effecting its drag and slowing the plane down a bit. If the control surfaces were made of canvas or so, it would be severely tattered and would be rendered extremely ineffective. The rounds could have hit important internal cables or rods that move the ailerons or the elevators, robbing the plane of mobility. All these hits may not be immediately fatal, but the are certainly potentially dangerous.

 Now, AH does have a few internal machinery depicted. It has engine damage, busted oil cans, and leaking fuel tanks, destroyed guns and gears. However, as long as the pilot and the engine is safe, there's nothing that can be damaged "internally", that will bring the plane down. You can shoot all you want at the target's wings with the 50cals, but if the total amount of damage done to the wing is not enough to snap it, then the plane's performance is undeterred.

 This means that planes in AH are shot down by structural failures predominantly. You can rake across the enemy plane from wingtip to wingtip with 50cals, but as long as the pilot and the engine is safe, the target plane is utterly unharmed.

 
.............


 Therefore, I believe the consensus is that AH 50cal rounds are functionally accurate... but ppular misconceptions, as well as actual DM flaws, have made the 50cal seem 'weak'. I don't think the 50cal is weak.. but I do think the DM needs to be changed.

Offline Spatula

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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2006, 03:30:45 PM »
You forgot the flying torch impersonation the japper planes do when you hit their non-self-sealing fuel tanks :D
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 02:53:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Spatula
You forgot the flying torch impersonation the japper planes do when you hit their non-self-sealing fuel tanks :D

You forgot that the only Japanese plane you see with any regularity in AH that lacks self sealing fuel tanks is the A6M.  The Ki-61, Ki-67, Ki-84 and N1K2-J all had fully protected fuel systems.
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Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 03:55:04 PM »
i can post a film of a 900yrds headshot with 8x50cals if y'all want :)
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Offline TW9

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50 cal ballistics/lethality
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 04:02:20 PM »
its all in convergence.. i have mine set from 250-300yrds.. i dont shoot at anything further unless im trying to get them to break.. if your convergense is set all the way out and ur shooting at something thats 200-300 ur rounds are landing spread out on the plane and not concentrated anywhere..
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Online Max

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50 cal ballistics/lethality
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2006, 09:44:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TW9
its all in convergence.. i have mine set from 250-300yrds.. i dont shoot at anything further unless im trying to get them to break.. if your convergense is set all the way out and ur shooting at something thats 200-300 ur rounds are landing spread out on the plane and not concentrated anywhere..


TW9 I used to fly with The Damned...a squad heralding back to Air Warrior
gENIE days. A number of those folks, including Fool, DmdDano, Ren, TC and more were all Hog, Pony, Corsair pros and could get hits and kills, back in AH1, at 600, 800, even 1000 yds. DmdLugs was a firm advocate of setting 50 cals out to 650...and he always managed to roll up the scalps on every sortie he flew.

I agree with your premise of dialing them back to 300 yards or less in the current version of the game. Yet, I still consider the lethality of 50 cals to be less than what they really were. Was hoping for some input from Hitech on my post but alas, it never happend.

Offline Major Biggles

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50 cal ballistics/lethality
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2006, 10:04:03 PM »
like kweassa said really, it's not the rounds, it's the damage model. machine guns would be much more deadly if the damage model was more sophisticated. the hurri mk1 would be an uber ride, it would shred all the control wires and everything :p

but max, get in the right plane of motion, saddle up, and fire bursts, and the 50 cals are VERY effective. just need to hit the same spot several times :)

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