why such difference in hit ability tween il2 and ah guns?

[Fester']

any theories?

in il2 you must do what the real aces said you had to do:

get up close and fire.

in ah you can kill from 5 football fields away no problem. the moto of get close and when you think you are to close get closer does not apply.


asuming both sims have correct bullet physics and target hitmap proportions what could cause this disparity in hit ability besides aircraft control?

could il2 bullets be a differenet size than the bullets in AH?


what causes this disparity in hit ability?

[Fury]

Originally posted by Fester':
....asuming both sims have correct bullet physics and target hitmap proportions.......

[AKDejaVu]

I was watching some gun cam footage from a p-51 on the Wings channel.  The plane was firing less than 1 second bursts every 2 or 3 seconds while tracking the enemy (deflection shot).  He hit with 2 of the 3 bursts at a range that appeared to be well over 200 yards.

Il-2 does many things well.  Their gunnery/damage model doesn't seem to be one of those.  Requiring an aircraft to be within 200 meters, and having no real convergance to the guns (that I can see at least) is not more realistic.  It seems there are two ends of the spectrum... with neither AH nor Il-2 residing near the middle.

So far, my record in Il-2 is hitting a 1938 fighter 20 times with LW 20mm rounds with no damage showing on the aircraft except for a fuel leak.  Exploding rounds detonating harmlessly in a fuel vapor trail.

AKDejaVu

[Pongo]

Aggreed Deja
I seriosly doubt that the single mission kill records set by german pilots in 109 Fs and G2s would be remotly possible with the Il2 gunnery system..
It is fun to wail away on those Rattas though

[pugg666]

it might be a matter of clarity.

what i mean by that is when we're flyin in aces high it's pretty much under perfect conditions. unlimited visibility, weather, etc...

now i only took a quick look at the IL2 demo (my system is way below par for it, PII 266), but what i noticed about it was the fact that it was difficult to see things compared to AH, it's not clear/clean, if you understand what i'm getting at.it's harder to get an accurate fix on your target, dispite the icons. sort of like flying AH at night, where you know the other guy is 250 yards in front of you but your not quite sure of his orientation.
i dunno maybe it's just me??

[edit]
i've only flown the p-39 mission so far. that's what i'm basing this on
[/edit]

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: pugg666 ]

[Rocket]

I think the dispersion on IL2 is a big factor.  Even setting your convergence close doesn't seem to do much.  The bullet paths still seem like a huge cone instead of a concentrated path.  I think that this would affect overall damage at the same time.  The other thing to consider is the damage model itself.  With bullets you can find all the info on weight, drop, volecity, etc. but modeling how much damage a round will do to a piece of aluminum or wood or a spar or cloth, it would be a guessing game.  Each game designer trying to do the best as possible to recreate with accuracy    

S!
Rocket

[AKDejaVu]

I don't think its clarity pugg.  Even with the grey thatching on the windscreen, I can see aircraft with much greater clarity than AH provides.

I'm operating at 1024x768x32 OpenGL mode.  Maybe this changes with resolution?

AKDejaVu

[Russian]

AKDejaVu, Send me please that .trk

SimFreak777@hotmail.com

I killed many AC using only small caliber, If I get close enough. Mostly I brake part off or catch it on fire.

[AKDejaVu]

I don't know if I saved that one russian.

I only saved two .trk files... one of them with a 5 kill sortie... none of the aircraft went down easily.

Maybe you can explain this comment to me:

I killed many AC using only small caliber, If I get close enough.

What do you mean by close enough?  How close?

I can hit very consistantly at 200 yards with the mgs.  I see debris falling from the aircraft after each burst, so it looks like I am hitting it.  Nothing happens to the plane.

Are you saying the guns would be significantly more lethal at 100 yards?  If so, I'd like to know why.

AKDejaVu

[Sky Viper]

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
a range that appeared to be well over 200 yards.

Here is a point to be made.

Deja and Pongo, when was the last time either of you stood 200 yds behind a WW2 Aircraft and sized it up.
I gotta tell ya that the last time I was at an airshow I did just such a thing with a P51 and I wasn't surprised to find that it looks quite a bit SMALLER in RL than it does in AH at that distance.

Ever notice that from inside your cockpit, when a friend launches at the same time as you, his cockpit/airplane is HUGE in compairison?

My guess is that if HTC or any other SIM Programer can not visually model 1:1 due to resolution limitations. I.E. a P51 at 400 yds would only be a few pixels wide.
Actual human visual acuity is much better than that, so to compensate, they model the image larger than RL.

Now, if they model the size larger than realistic, and don't expand the hit area to match, then you would not get a hit if you shot near the edge of the visual target.
So, they probably enlarge the target area to match, and bingo, you can shoot 400 yds with more deadly accuracy than a U.S. Marine Sniper.
 

Viper

[AKDejaVu]

I've sized up a deer at 300 yards with an open sight before pongo.  Last I checked, this was quite a bit smaller than a plane.  I can even see cars in our parking lot that are well over 500 yards away.  I'm trying to imagine how difficult it would be to hit one with 6 .50 calibre machine guns.

Like I said... this pilot was hitting with short burst at an angle at greater than 200 yards.  If he was closer, he wouldn't have kept the turning plane in his sights.

AKDejaVu

[DeeZCamp]

Il2 gunnery is much more realistic, it requires that you actualy get close in  

(more like reality)

theres a saying you know...

"dont shoot untill the enemy fills your windscreen"

it applies there.


I have tracks if anyone wants to see.
(mouse views are excellent too for this)


as far as the damage portion, A very low almost parallel shot will hit and maybe eve richochet off the target.

Oleg states that the Gunnery is modeled in such a way that rochocheting can ocur.

For thos who dont belive that a short burst of 20mm will kill a plane, try a shot from a higher aspect. at about .20 distance..  

 

[AKSWulfe]

Hmmmm... there's an even easier question:

Why the hell would you compare two games and denote that because one has an aspect harder you deem it more 'correct'?

Just seems that everytime something new comes out and has this "oo ah" or "this is closer to what I've read" effect that it is the definitive of what it does?

Seriously, how diluted can you possibly get?
-SW

[AKDejaVu]

For thos who dont belive that a short burst of 20mm will kill a plane, try a shot from a higher aspect. at about .20 distance..

This has occured to me.  However, I have hit several high aspect shots... especially when the plane goes into a climb and stalls out.  I've not noticed all that much more effectiveness.

BTW.. I don't shoot at greater than 200 meters in Il-2.  I am a pretty decent shot.  You cannot tell me that this is the maximum range at wich a gun should be effective.  I have too much experience with much smaller calibre weapons to believe this for an instant.

AKDejaVu

[Russian]

I have to get real close, from far a way I don't see that I'm hitting it. That little stuff that falls of doesn't really help. I never use zoom, just regular view and attack when I can smell him  .  Go right behind him and little bit to a side and give a little ruddre and spray into main body section. He should catch on fire quikly.

Run your own tracks and just fallow your enemy, you'll be surprised of how many hits you actually miss.

AKDejaVu, just make new one and show me that it took 20 hits to bring fighter down. They must have those durn shields up.