A P38G driver's favorite place to be....

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Golfer
what's a horseshoe stall?

My guess either a stall on the top end of a High Yo-Yo or Chandelle.


ack-ack

[helbent]

Or hammerhead to rudder kik????

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Gloves
It's where you climb straight up, then just as you're about to loose airspeed, pull back a little more.  This causes the horseshoe sitting on your dash to fall back and hit you in the head.

That sounds like Dave Barry wrote it.

[humble]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
When this pic was snapped, had the Spit started a loop, he will gain on Corky.   Corky, would have to complete the roll and then "choose to follow" or "climb turn".    Sorry, but the loop would have had the best chance of "turning the tables" for the spit.

not at all, corky has to be in a counterclockwise roll. His angle of the tail is somewhere around 45 degrees....if the spit continues up to the right or goes vertical he'll cover those 45 degree's in 2 seconds...longer then it takes for corky to continue his roll....his lift vector is traveling less distance (in rotation) then it took for him to actually kill the spit...so he has a guns solution on any vertical move....just plain physics. Only the range goes up...but I'd guess 300-350 max range shot....if the spit goes nose high another 1/2 (10-15 degrees) and then tranistions that to a vector roll (just pull down thru) he'd cut under corky and gain both extension and angles...the 38 will roll faster then the spit can turn either "up" or to the right....

[Hoarach]

I thought it was going be the optometrists office getting their eyes checked since you have to be blind to fly it.

[RedTop]

I've seen Guppy/Corky from that angle. Its NOT a good place to be.

[Xasthur]

This is the only place for a P 38

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
Actually the Spits in a good position.  He's totally won the wing orientation battle and almost no matter when he breaks, as long as its pulling the stick back, the P-38 is going to temporarily lose him trying to re-orient to the break.  180 degree rotational difference is obviously optimal as you break under the other pilots nose causing him to at least temporarily lose sight.  As we all know "lose sight, lose the fight".  

The only potential danger to the Spit is a snapshot on the break but I don't know how much of a spiral or barrel rolling motion was involved here which would make a difference.

I'm also assuming the Spit has enough e to break effectively without stalling.

Go right.. Boom, you're dead.  Look at the 38's nose.. it's already angled to the right. The fact that his wings aren't level is moot... there will be a decent gun solution there.

Won the wing orientation battle?   Ummm how does that defeat a gun solution in this scenario?

[DEMONSLAYER]

id say left is his worst option a p38G can out flat turn a spit in that position all guppy had to do ( if spit went left) was cut throttle and Finnish his roll by going down and using rudder. that spit should have gone up because he has more speed then guppy by the time guppy finishes his roll he wont have any speed there for the spit should easily rope him come down and make a shot. if guppy extends then he is put in the defence position and guppy is in a 38G so he would be pretty screwed.  next time yall get in a yo yo move which is what happened go left and see what happens. the guy will cut throttle and be right on your 6.

[humble]

left is the only option....the spit died going right. He's already rolling right....if he pulls up he's dead...if he rolls back and goes pure vertical he's dead. He cant alter the angles and guppys rate of rotatation beats his rate of turn. his best options is a vector roll out and under...if he can squeeze under...otherwise he needs to reverse to left and get out of the rolling scissors and into a flat scissors. He cant use a yoyo from where he is going right and he cant go up and left...basically the only thing he's got to work with is his roll rate...so he needs to get guppy in lag then flat scissor him....if the spit was closer he'd have a chance to go up but guppys got him to far out in front. It looks like guppys 45-60 degrees of the tail...so the spittys got a small chance if he can roll under...if guppy continues his roll in sync...the spitty will gain another 30-45 degrees. worst case the spits got a chance to create a smaller shot window...here by the time he's covered guppys AOT I bet guppy rolled right into a perfect snapshot...if he goes up guppy converts to a true tracking shot in vert...if spit goes left it puts guppy outside...good timing on scissors gives him a harder shot and possibly no shot with some luck...

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Won the wing orientation battle?   Ummm how does that defeat a gun solution in this scenario?

As I said, a 180 degree rotational difference allows you break under the other pilots nose causing him to at least temporarily lose sight.  At that point the attacker has to continue his roll to be able to break in the same direction gaining valuable seconds for the Spit who, with the right move, will be on the P-38's six before he recovers visibility.

Again the danger to the Spit is a snapshot as he makes the break across the P-28's nose.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
Again the danger to the Spit is a snapshot as he makes the break across the P-28's nose. [/B]

Yup and at that range, at that speed, with 38 guns... BOOM

At that point the attacker has to continue his roll to be able to break in the same direction

You are talking about the right break.  I have been trying to tell you... the 38 is already pointing right!  All the 38 has to do is roll left a little bit and he is saddled up and in plane w/ the spitties wings.  This is assuming the spit somehow survives a near point blank snapper.

[humble]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
As I said, a 180 degree rotational difference allows you break under the other pilots nose causing him to at least temporarily lose sight.  At that point the attacker has to continue his roll to be able to break in the same direction gaining valuable seconds for the Spit who, with the right move, will be on the P-38's six before he recovers visibility.

Again the danger to the Spit is a snapshot as he makes the break across the P-28's nose.

Looking at the picture the the 38 is already in a lead turn position of 45 degrees +. So its going to take the spit 2+ seconds just to reach the 38's guns. The 38 is thru the "bottom of the rotation so Guppy already has vis at the moment the shot is taken. The spit is above the 38 slightly so he has no "blindspot" to exploit. The 38 is also nose up so he needs time to get his nose under as well. I dont see any way the spitty gets thru (and he didnt)...

[BaldEagl]

I agree that the Spit has gotten himself into trouble but I have to totally disagree with those who say that a left break is his only way out.

If the Spit breaks left he has to reverse his current rotation and come back ~135 degrees to do so.  At the same time the 38 only has to rotate 90 degrees.  The Spit gives up valuable seconds and the P-38 will be on his six coming out of the break.

That being the case the Spit has to continue his current rotation and, as I've said, if he breaks across the P-38s nose and survives the snapshot will have gained both time (as the P-38 now has to complete another 180 degrees of rotation in order to break in the same direction) and the advantage of loss of visibility by the P-38.

Like I said the Spits in trouble and surviving the snapshot is a big if but unless he's got enough E to extend he doesn't have any other good options.

[Guppy35]

Jeez you guys are serious about this stuff

I just thought the picture looked kinda cool.  It was one of those moments where you are in the middle of a brawl and you don't even know you are upside down cause you are concentrating so hard on not dying.  

I'm positive both of us did lots of things wrong in the fight and that the great sticks around here would have ended it far sooner then the 5 minutes it took for this fight to end.