take the challenge and speak the blasphemy

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by lazs2
and lasersailor... no... every bad thing that ever happened is not because of religion..  some of the worst men of all times were athiests like the commies or simply insane and power hungry like hitler.   All the bad things happen about 90% of the time because of overpopulation.   Religion has been used as an excuse for some to act the way they do tho in a lot of the "bad" cases.

Selective reading much?  I linked all the bad things that happen in the world to Religion AND government.  Both things are bad.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by wrag
Hmmm .................... IMHO in this day and age I have difficulty believing a Christian fanatic would try to kill you for disagreeing.  But we are all intitled to our opinion.

Wrag, respectfully, I think my point went right over your head.  I'll reiterate...

Basically, a fanatic is a fanatic is a fanatic.  They all are set to give 100% for their cause.  Christians, admittedly, have a good cause that doesn't preach violence, wheareas other religions (Islam) do.

I'll give Christians that.

But my point is, if the Bible said "kill the infidel," the people who claim the Bible is 100% accurate would naturally have to "kill the infidel," or else they wouldn't believe it to be 100% accurate.

So the difference between fanatics is not the person, but the book, at least IMO.

As to believing 100% despite all the evidence against, doesn't that depend on what one calls evidence?

I've seen WAY too much of what many call scientific evidence become null and void far too many times!  THEY DON'T KNOW WAY TOO MUCH!  IMHO the things they don't know is far greater then the things they do know.  If they have no way to measure something, or can't even find out if it actually exist, then they make claims and put forward theroies.  Which are later often proven UNTRUE or INACCURATE.  One can have FAITH in their claims and theroies if one is so inclined.

See, the thing about science is that theories are naturally torn apart within the scientific community.  Other scientists advance their own theories, much work and studying is done, and eventually you emerge with a pretty good idea, the basics of which don't *usually* change.

HOWEVER, science CAN change.  And that is the beauty of it.  Just a few weeks ago, there was a MAJOR change in how we view human evolution, for example, as it was discovered that Neanderthal was actually an ancestor of modern humans.  For years, it was assumed Neanderthal was not.  (I personally didn't believe they were until the evidence proved me wrong).

Religion, on the other hand, CANNOT change.  If you say "The Bible is 100% accurate," that will never, ever change, no matter what is shown.

Therein lies the fundamnetal difference, and why one is based on reason and research, and the other in faith and, arguably, at least in some areas, denial.

Now, why religion can't change as science figures stuff out, I don't know.  If the Bible is proven not to be 100% accurate, does that really mean one can't still believe in God?  Or that Jesus died for our sins?

Does faith have to be blind?  Does one have to completely turn their backs to reason to have it?

I'd say not, but some people I've met in life seem to think otherwise.  

I would also think much of what one believes resides within the life they have lived.

I further think that without the Christian religion we, all of us, would not be as free, equal, wealthy, healthy, etc.........

Much of our system and laws were founded on the Mosaic.  But again I'm stating an opinion here.

And, you know, I think you're right.  Please don't get me confused with someone who is totally against religion, because I'm not...  I think religion is a good thing.  It gives people hope, and helps them do the right thing.  It helps spread compassion and leniency and good things...  I consider myself religious, in fact.  I pray and such.  I think Jesus' ideas were pretty noble, and worth trying to copy.

Anyway, the timing of my participation in this thread was in bad taste, given the holidays and all.  So my apologies to the more devout than I

[sluggish]

Originally posted by Silat
Well first off the Christians believe in the new and the old. Secondly Jesus was a Jew and said he wasnt here to start a religion. His followers proceeded to start a religion after his death.

I'll subscribe to what you're selling but by and large Christians don't buy into a majority of the Old Testament.  The Old Testament is the Jewish Bible.  There really isn't that much difference between the brutality of the Old Testament and the Koran. For example, that Leviticus Question I asked that everyone pretended they didn't see...

Jesus preached to turn the other cheek and what-not.  I think he would probably really fit in well with today's blunt smoking hippies.  I think John Lennon said it best when he said that "Jesus was alright but his disciples were thick and ordinary."  It's like when you played that game in school where you whispered a message in your neighbor’s ear and they passed it on and you saw how the message got totally turned around by the time it got to the end of the line.  We see on a daily basis how people will consistently screw everything up.  How can we expect a two-thousand year old story passed on from generation to generation, translated from one tongue to another and then back again to have any semblance of the truth, let alone the word of god?

And let it be known that I am not denying god, I'm just questioning the messenger.

[Silat]

Originally posted by lukster
Your atheist fanatics like the communists however are in an altogether different category when it comes to brutality, imo.

Wow you labeled someone. Did he say he was an atheist?
And you are the 2nd person to label someone a communist because they dont agree with you.

[dmf]

Originally posted by wrag
It is possible that because it was FORCED on you, allot didn't make sense or have any meaning.

IMHO forcing such on anyone is WRONG!

Modern?  Every age is a modern age for those living it! I mean after all it's all they got, right?   Blindly?  You have seen what other have seen?  You have lived as other have lived?  

IMHO you have every right to see things as you will, or choose, or the life you have lived seems to direct you.

By that same reasoning I MUST say to you, I hope you are not one of those that INSISTS that their beliefs and their way of viewing the world is the only CORRECT way.

As to what or who I think God is, how can you claim that God is not what I think God is?   As we have never discussed my beliefs.  You can read my mind?

Well yea, my grandmother was a religious fanatic, to the point of Carries mother in the Stephen King movie.

I see things for what they are, if somebody tells me a person is filled with good and I see him choking a puppy to death, then he obviously isn't a good person.

I don't push my religion on anybody, my religion has been shunned, purseacuted, and burned at the stake, just because it isn't understood, so I tend to keep mine private, and amongst me and my own.

I'm not trying to discus beliefs with U, I just want to make a point that blind faith is not a good thing, research EVERYTHING, before saying that any deity is a peaceful and loving deity.

[mosgood]

Originally posted by dmf

I don't push my religion on anybody, my religion has been shunned, purseacuted, and burned at the stake, just because it isn't understood, so I tend to keep mine private, and amongst me and my own.

The center of Christianity was shunned, pursecuted and nailed to a cross just because he was misunderstood.

dmf, there have been a lot of people throughout history that have manipulated and warped the words of the bible to fit thier own personal goals.  But Jesus's message in the bible does not speak of harming anyone... even puppies.  

[lukster]

Originally posted by Silat
Wow you labeled someone. Did he say he was an atheist?
And you are the 2nd person to label someone a communist because they dont agree with you.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Let me rephrase.

Take athiest fanatics, for example the communists, they murdered millions.

I wasn't calling anyone here a fanatic or a communist. You misunderstood my comment.

[dmf]

Originally posted by mosgood
The center of Christianity was shunned, pursecuted and nailed to a cross just because he was misunderstood.

dmf, there have been a lot of people throughout history that have manipulated and warped the words of the bible to fit thier own personal goals.  But Jesus's message in the bible does not speak of harming anyone... even puppies.  

You gotta be kidding me, hello, whats flooding the planet and the 2 of every animal that Noah took with him about them, unless the people outside the ark could breather water, I think they might have been harmed, killed even. And what about Lots wife that looked back at her city , didn't your god turn her into a pillar of salt? Sounds like harm to me. Thats right in the bible.

Thanks but I'm happy the way I am. Not about to change religions just cause its popular, or because its one of the few that was remembered. there are more religions out there than christian.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by mosgood
The center of Christianity was shunned, pursecuted and nailed to a cross just because he was misunderstood.

dmf, there have been a lot of people throughout history that have manipulated and warped the words of the bible to fit thier own personal goals.  But Jesus's message in the bible does not speak of harming anyone... even puppies.  

It doesnt. but it most certainly has

The Inquisition

Ahh the good old days
Lasted over 600 years too till 1834







"To assist people in repenting, the Inquisitors used any torture method they could think of, with the theoretical restriction that they couldn't break the skin. The Inquisitors came up with numerous gadgets to work within this restriction. They included

 The Judas Chair: This was a large pyramid-shaped "seat." Accused heretics were placed on top of it, with the point inserted into their anuses or genitalia, then very, very slowly lowered onto the point with ropes. The effect was to gradually stretch out the opening of choice in an extremely painful manner.

The Head Vice: Pretty straightforward concept. They put your head into a specially fitted vice, and tighten it until your teeth are crushed, your bones crack and eventually your eyes pop out of their sockets.

The Pear: A large bulbous gadget is inserted in the orifice of choice, whether mouth, anus or vagina. A lever on the device then causes it to slowly expand whilst inserted. Eventually points emerge from the tips. (Apparently, internal bleeding doesn't count as "breaking the skin.")
The Wheel: Heretics are strapped to a big ol' wheel, and their bones are clubbed into shards. Not very creative, but quite effective

Methods of execution weren't much better. Since death was the eventual outcome, the skin-breaking point was rendered largely moot. While burning at the stake was the most widely used method, being cost-effective and providing a fun spectacle for the whole family, there were other approaches used in special cases:

Sawing: Heretics were hung upside-down and sawed apart down the middle, starting at the crotch.
Disembowelment: Not the nice kind of disembowelment, where a samurai slits you wide open like a fish and you die in moments. No, that's not good enough for the Inquisition. A small hole is cut in the gut, then the intestines are drawn out slowly and carefully, keeping the victim alive for as much of the process as possible.
The Stake: Depending on how unrepentant a heretic might be, the process of burning at the stake could vary wildly. For instance, a fairly repentant heretic might be strangled, then burned. An entirely unrepentant heretic could be burned over the course of hours, using green wood or simply by placing them on top of hot coals and leaving them there until well done.
The last burning organized by the Inquisition was in 1834, when the Spanish Inquisition was officially abolished"

[mosgood]

Jesus's message didn't have anything that resembled what happend during the times of The Inquisition either.

Just because someone says they represent something... doesn't automatically mean they do.

Again, a lot of people throughout history have manipulated and warped the words of the bible to fit thier own personal goals.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by mosgood
Jesus's message didn't have anything that resembled what happend during the times of The Inquisition either.

Just because someone says they represent something... doesn't automatically mean they do.

Again, a lot of people throughout history have manipulated and warped the words of the bible to fit thier own personal goals.

True. But this was official Church policy

and the same thing can be said for every other religeon

[wrag]

Originally posted by Vudak
Wrag, respectfully, I think my point went right over your head.  I'll reiterate..."

Naw I caught it.  To be honest if a religion told me to kill all unbeleivers I'm inclined to think I would fight that religion.  But I also must admit I was NOT brought into a world that many in the Islamic east are living in now.

"Basically, a fanatic is a fanatic is a fanatic.  They all are set to give 100% for their cause.  Christians, admittedly, have a good cause that doesn't preach violence, wheareas other religions (Islam) do.

I'll give Christians that.

But my point is, if the Bible said "kill the infidel," the people who claim the Bible is 100% accurate would naturally have to "kill the infidel," or else they wouldn't believe it to be 100% accurate.

So the difference between fanatics is not the person, but the book, at least IMO."

OK I have to grant that as it make sense



"See, the thing about science is that theories are naturally torn apart within the scientific community.  Other scientists advance their own theories, much work and studying is done, and eventually you emerge with a pretty good idea, the basics of which don't *usually* change.

HOWEVER, science CAN change.  And that is the beauty of it.  Just a few weeks ago, there was a MAJOR change in how we view human evolution, for example, as it was discovered that Neanderthal was actually an ancestor of modern humans.  For years, it was assumed Neanderthal was not.  (I personally didn't believe they were until the evidence proved me wrong).

Religion, on the other hand, CANNOT change.  If you say "The Bible is 100% accurate," that will never, ever change, no matter what is shown.

Therein lies the fundamnetal difference, and why one is based on reason and research, and the other in faith and, arguably, at least in some areas, denial.

Now, why religion can't change as science figures stuff out, I don't know.  If the Bible is proven not to be 100% accurate, does that really mean one can't still believe in God?  Or that Jesus died for our sins?

Does faith have to be blind?  Does one have to completely turn their backs to reason to have it?

I'd say not, but some people I've met in life seem to think otherwise."

Interesting thought here.  Suggestion........  when one gets to the end of Genesis 1 and reads and then God rested, I have noticed in Genesis 2 is where Adam and Eve are created.  SO is it possible that mankind was created on the 6th day and Adam and Eve on the 8th   Is it possible that it is an error to think that 2nd Genesis is a repeat of 1st Genesis?   It would also explain where the wife of Cain came from.  If my understanding is correct Cain is NOT of the Adamic line.  He was NOT the child of Adam but of another.

If my understanding is correct the Adamic line was created for ONE purpose.  It would bring forth Jesus.

 

"And, you know, I think you're right.  Please don't get me confused with someone who is totally against religion, because I'm not...  I think religion is a good thing.  It gives people hope, and helps them do the right thing.  It helps spread compassion and leniency and good things...  I consider myself religious, in fact.  I pray and such.  I think Jesus' ideas were pretty noble, and worth trying to copy.

Anyway, the timing of my participation in this thread was in bad taste, given the holidays and all.  So my apologies to the more devout than I

"

I think I understand you Vudak.  I think my understanding of the Bible is different then yours Sir.  I expressed a small part of that just above in this post.

[Pooh21]

I think everyone, be they Christian,jew,or muslim feels a little bit of joy in their hearts when they shout

"Burn the Witch!!!"

[wrag]

Originally posted by dmf
You gotta be kidding me, hello, whats flooding the planet and the 2 of every animal that Noah took with him about them, unless the people outside the ark could breather water, I think they might have been harmed, killed even. And what about Lots wife that looked back at her city , didn't your god turn her into a pillar of salt? Sounds like harm to me. Thats right in the bible.

Thanks but I'm happy the way I am. Not about to change religions just cause its popular, or because its one of the few that was remembered. there are more religions out there than christian.

Ahh the flood.  Why did it happen?  You read it, but because it was forced upon you I'm inclined to think you may have missed it.  The Fallen Ones.  They created a problem.  Ran around beggetting n such.  Their offspring were refered to as men of renoun and or giants.  The renoun was not of a good sort.  They were after the Adamic line.  Wanted to destroy it.  Seems Noah and his family were the only ones remaining of the Adamic line.  Seems that what this place (the earth) was like was BAD.  Very bad!  Worse then present day Samolia, or the Nazi regime, or Stalin's time, or Pol Pot.  IIRC the giants had a mean, cruel, and cannabalistic, streak as well.

Yep there are other religions.  IMHO each should select the religion they believe suites them.  HOWEVER IIRC NO religion is without a destructive time.  As has been said in other post within this thread.  Sadly, there is always someone that takes a religion and twists it to their own ends.  Often creating something EVIL while doing so.

[wrag]

Originally posted by dmf
Well yea, my grandmother was a religious fanatic, to the point of Carries mother in the Stephen King movie.

I see things for what they are, if somebody tells me a person is filled with good and I see him choking a puppy to death, then he obviously isn't a good person.

I don't push my religion on anybody, my religion has been shunned, purseacuted, and burned at the stake, just because it isn't understood, so I tend to keep mine private, and amongst me and my own.

I'm not trying to discus beliefs with U, I just want to make a point that blind faith is not a good thing, research EVERYTHING, before saying that any deity is a peaceful and loving deity.

I am NOT claming that either God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit are ONLY peaceful and loving.  IMHO the Bible does not make this claim either.

It relates to the promise of FREE CHOICE!  That we are not forced.  Sadly some have made choices that are bad for all others, or at least for some of the population close enough to these types.

Should a NEW Hitler or Stalin type of person get into power near you.  Maybe not complete power but say enough that they have thugs/followers that would take GREAT joy in coming to your home and doing terrible things to you.  And perhaps inslaving you afterward.  What would be your reaction?

Not a happy one I bet!

Now lets say they aren't coming for you but for your children and grandchildren!  

What ya gonna do?

Ignore it?  let em do as they please?  

I'd rather believe you wouldn't.  I'd rather believe if there was anything you could do to stop them you would do it!

BTW I have done a considerable amount of research.  Even did some study of what many at the time refered to as the occult.  Think it's now called wiccan.  Looked at Islam, Buhdism, and one or 2 others.   Usually found something rather quickly that made me back away.  I could probably recall every reason if pressed.