Author Topic: B-20 vs ShVAK  (Read 1691 times)

Offline Apeking

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« on: December 22, 2006, 01:34:59 PM »
If you flip LA7 upside down it looks like LV7 with a bar through the middle of the V. Also, "la 7" is French for "she the seven".

The La7 can mount 2xShVAK 20mm or 3xB-20 20mm cannon. Is there any benefit in mounting 2xShVAK instead of 3xB-20? From what I have read on Netaces and Soda's aircraft evaluation page and also in Martin Amis' classic novel "London Fields" the answer is no, no, and no, in that order, there is no benefit at all.

Either Tony Williams or a Russian person might be able to answer my second question; what is the proper way to pronounce ShVAK? Shiv-ack? Shove-ack? Shoe-vak? S-H-V-A-K? Dubrontney-duvovev-speeracknerenyoi? I often find myself at dinner parties, and the conversation turns to aircraft armaments of WW2, and I do not want to make an embarassing faux pas in front of the other guests.

Offline straffo

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2006, 02:53:05 PM »
"La" It's not french it's the short version of "Lavotchin"

Btw in french planes are male not female :)

We say "un" avion not "une" avion.

for the B20 vs ShVAK do a search in this forum I think it is already covered somewhere.

Offline Apeking

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 03:11:03 PM »
"for the B20 vs ShVAK do a search in this forum I think it is already covered somewhere."

I've tried that, no joy - and I'm not so much interested in the relative performance of the two cannon (they seem to be about the same), rather the relative performance of two La7s, one with 2x20mm and one with 3x20mm, albeit of a different type.

Offline straffo

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 03:59:49 PM »
Well I try to dig it later for now I must go to bed .

All I can say is the B20 is lighter as efficient as the shvak and use the same ammo.
The difference is the weight per salvo,it increase with 3 gun.

Offline zorstorer

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 04:40:52 PM »
2 gun version is SLIGHTLY lighter, so you get that advantage....

3 gun version has a much better weight of fire, so you get that advantage ;)

If you are just looking for the better killing machine....the 3 gun wins hands down.

Offline Ball

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2006, 04:06:09 AM »
If you have good aim, take the B-20's.

If you do not and spray a lot, take the ShVAK.  (ammo lasts longer)

I fire in la7 like i do 30mm planes, point blank range only.

Offline Tilt

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2006, 12:51:50 PM »
3 x B-20 offer 1.5 times the lethality (per sec) of 2 x Shvaks.

3 x B20 weigh 3 x 25Kg = 75kg

2 x Shvaks weigh 2 x 42kg = 84kg

each round weighs 97grams so lets say 0.1kg with belt.

B20 option with full ord = 120kg

Shvak option with full ord = 124kg
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Offline Apeking

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2006, 04:05:22 PM »
"B20 option with full ord = 120kg
Shvak option with full ord = 124kg"

Thanks for that. The 3xB-20 seems like a drawback-free upgrade. I imagine that, in real life, the variance in pilot weight would be more than 4kg.

It's a shame the game doesn't model pilot weight, or have a slider whereby you can select a thin pilot (who has trouble pulling the controls, and bobs around in the cockpit more), or an overweight pilot who has no problem wrenching the stick but makes the plane slightly slower.

(insert national stereotypes HERE)

Offline zorstorer

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2006, 09:36:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Apeking
"B20 option with full ord = 120kg
Shvak option with full ord = 124kg"

Thanks for that. The 3xB-20 seems like a drawback-free upgrade. I imagine that, in real life, the variance in pilot weight would be more than 4kg.

It's a shame the game doesn't model pilot weight, or have a slider whereby you can select a thin pilot (who has trouble pulling the controls, and bobs around in the cockpit more), or an overweight pilot who has no problem wrenching the stick but makes the plane slightly slower.

(insert national stereotypes HERE)


That might be an interesting idea to post either in wishlist or combat tour areas of the forum.

That's what really gets the "Perk the 3 gun La7" crowd foaming at the mouth.  Very few La7's actually had the 3 gun option, yet here they get em with no cost.  Doesn't really bother me either way.  Though taking the 2 gun option will get you used to shooting in the La5FN if you feel you want to be less dweeby. ;)

Offline Krusty

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2006, 01:26:47 AM »
It's not just weight. In the La7 weight is negligable between the two. The difference is stopping power, round-per-round damage, and ballistics. The 2-gun option has bad ballistics. Rounds drop a lot more. They do a lot less damage as well. In the same session (some time ago) I upped a 3-gun, a 2-gun, a 3-gun, a 2-gun (etc) to compare. I would have a harder time hitting any angle or deflection shot with the 2-gun setup. Coincidentally, when I *DID* hit, it did less damage (I landed no less than 20 hit sprites from a P51's prop to it's rudder, I don't care if they were scattered, 20 should have done something, but not a single thing fell off or started leaking). The 3-gun option has faster rounds or something, they fly "flatter" and with a better trajectory. This allows much easier much simplified shot setups. They also almost always destroy/maim on the first burst [fighter targets, not bombers].

Considering the huge boost in damage and trajectory, and the fact that they were so rare, I'm with the "perk 'em" crowd. I know first-hand how dweeby the LA7 is. I flew it for a week and got over 100:25 kills/deaths in it (just a little over one week, actually). It's very much an easy mode plane. I think folks might actually have to learn a few things if they were forced to compute lead when aiming, and required to land more than the first hit-sprite to bring a plane down. The 2-gun package requires these virtues. Are they virtues? Probably not, but they're good things to learn for all the newbies in La7s :)

Offline OOZ662

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2006, 02:55:09 AM »
Just an OT mind wander here, but were there even any two gun B-20 armed versions?
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline Keiler

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2006, 03:55:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt


each round weighs 97grams so lets say 0.1kg with belt.



183 grams per round! ;)

Matt

Offline Tony Williams

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2006, 05:54:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
The 2-gun option has bad ballistics. Rounds drop a lot more. They do a lot less damage as well.

There's no reason for that, as far as I'm aware. The ShVAK and B-20 fired exactly the same 20x99R ammo. Barrel lengths of both guns did vary quite a lot depending on the installation, which would have had some effect on ballistics, but they should have been similar for similar installations (i.e. fixed, cowling-mounted).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Offline Tilt

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2006, 10:52:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by OOZ662
Just an OT mind wander here, but were there even any two gun B-20 armed versions?


Not that I have ever read of...

The original La7 prototype was equipped with 3 x b20 and it was always intended that this was to be the armament used. However the B20 was fraught with short field life and jamming problems so the La7 was ordered into production in late March 44 using the 2 x Shvak. it was not until 11 months later that the 3 x B20 armament was introduced and then only at one of the two manufacturing sites
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 11:16:02 AM by Tilt »
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Offline Tilt

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B-20 vs ShVAK
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2006, 11:14:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Keiler
183 grams per round! ;)

Matt


Appologies...........referrin g back to "Rapid Fire" I note that 97 grams was indeed just the weight of the projectile.

Then total weight with cartridge and belt could easily be upto 200grams pre round

for easy math

3 x B20 weigh 3 x 25Kg = 75kg

2 x Shvaks weigh 2 x 42kg = 84kg

each round weighs lets say 0.2kg with belt.

B20 option with full ord = 165kg

Shvak option with full ord = 160kg
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