Loop with some sort of roll/turn

[Hawco]

Hi guys
I've encountered the above a few times and I know I should have fimed it, It's usually the good sticks that do this manouver, I know this as their name pops up on the bar once they have swept me aside....
It's like some kind of loop, but  includes some sort of rolling/turning component.
what happens is that you end up so slow your are pratically floating in mid air and the other guys picks you off nice and easy.
again, apologies for not filming this, anyone any ideas on what this manouver is and how to defeat it?
thanks a lot
Hawco

[BaldEagl]

I love that move.  Some planes are better suited to it than others.  The F6F and FM2 come to mind immediately.  It's a high reversal technique that, as you suspected includes a rolling component and a rudder component but I'm never any good at explaining these things so I'll let one of the "teachers" do it.  I do these things more out of instinct but that move brings you around at the top very quickly in the right plane.  It's also a move that bleeds E so you've got to be careful with it.

[MajWoody]

Creton has quite a few dueling films with this move in it posted I believe. You may want to try doing a search or perhaps Creton might jump in here & respond.

[Clutz]

Hawco, check out these links and see if can find the move you are talking about. If you can't find it, just enjoy the fine stuff these guys have put up for us to look at.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173151

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2278447#post2278447

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194038

Thank you humble, Badboy, Murdr Widewing and B@tfinkV, just to name a few. Sorry if I left out due credit for anybody that has helped us all so much; I have watched so many films today I have reached the point of total cofussion right now. I'm going to take a break now, TY

[BaldEagl]

OK, I see no one has chimed in yet so I'll take a stab at it.  I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will come along to correct me.

In it's simplest form you are in a standard loop.  Usually somewhere between a 45 degree climb and vertical you roll inverted while continuing to pull back on the stick.  Gravity at the top of your semi-loop after your roll (which also takes a small amount of E) helps pull the nose around faster than had you just continued the loop and you are able to almost follow the same line down as you followed up.

Using rudder through the center of the roll, in the same direction as the roll, will help bring the nose around even faster but will burn more E.  This additional E loss will actually assist the gravity effect amplifying the speed at which the nose comes around.

This move will surprise a lot of people who, while chasing you through the loop won't believe that you've been able to reverse direction so quickly and are now headed straight back at them.

Like I said, not all planes do this well.  I fly Spits a lot and this move will really drain off E.  In a Spit you're better off maintaining E through fluid turns.  F6F's and FM2's seem to be able to do this continually with little overall loss.  I've watched P-38's do it too but they may also require flaps.  Not sure because I don't really ever fly them.

[Edit] Oops, Clutz posted while I was typing this.

[SlapShot]

It sounds like he is getting "roped" ... he is following someone in a gentle climb (who has more E than him) who is looking back and just before he runs out of E, the other plane rudders hard to flip over and catch him as he is hanging out to dry.

I sometimes add a spiral climb to this to really deny a guns solution as he climbs and a soon as his nose starts to turn away ... I drop on him.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by SlapShot
It sounds like he is getting "roped" ... he is following someone in a gentle climb (who has more E than him) who is looking back and just before he runs out of E, the other plane rudders hard to flip over and catch him as he is hanging out to dry.

I sometimes add a spiral climb to this to really deny a guns solution as he climbs and a soon as his nose starts to turn away ... I drop on him.

Slapshot, I don't nessesarily think he's getting roped.  

I was out one night jumping back and forth from a Spit V to an FM2 and one thing I noticed was that, while both were excelent turners they did so in different ways due to their hadling charachteristics.

The Spit was great at extended flat turns while the FM2 did it best using yet another modification of this move in question.  Almost like a continuous series of high yo-yo reversals with rudder for lack of a better description.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Hawco
Hi guys
I've encountered the above a few times and I know I should have fimed it, It's usually the good sticks that do this manouver, I know this as their name pops up on the bar once they have swept me aside....
It's like some kind of loop, but  includes some sort of rolling/turning component.
what happens is that you end up so slow your are pratically floating in mid air and the other guys picks you off nice and easy.
again, apologies for not filming this, anyone any ideas on what this manouver is and how to defeat it?
thanks a lot
Hawco

I think what is described here is an combat Immelmann turn, not the immelmann that is demonstrated at airshows.

Max Immelmann's actual Combat Immelmann was what most pilots would call a version of the Boom and Zoom. He would make a high energy pass at his opponent, pulling up into an efficient vertical climb until he was sure he was out of guns range of his enemy, then he would use a rudder reversal to drop back down from a position of advantage and repeat his attack. From my reading this "rudder reversal" would be on the idea of a "Hammerhead" turn but at a better energy state. Rather than stalling out and using rudder to control the nose, start your rudder input a bit earlier and get the nose in the direction you want it a bit quicker and under more control.

[SlapShot]

Slapshot, I don't nessesarily think he's getting roped.

Well that is the only reason that I can think of that would get him into a position of ... "pratically floating in mid air and the other guys picks you off nice and easy" ... all while "It's like some kind of loop, but includes some sort of rolling/turning component." To perform a loop, one must climb ... which is essential to "roping" someone. I could be wrong but I am just going with what he described and trying to picture it in my mind.

Almost like a continuous series of high yo-yo reversals with rudder for lack of a better description.

This sounds like "rolling scissors" to me, which in most cases would not get your opponent into a "floating" condition, which in turn gives you the ability to pick him off nice and easy.

[Hawco]

Sorry for not filming this boys, I think it must be some sort of reversal technique, Not a rope as I can see that coming from a mile away, Think I'll have my filmer on today and see if I can capture this manouver.
Think Baldegl is about on the money with his description, I really need to learn all this sort of stuff, thing is though, I just like to log in and have a bit of fun and a few laughs, Still, be good to learn these sort of things.
cheers for taking the time to reply guys
Hawco

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by SlapShot
"pratically floating in mid air and the other guys picks you off nice and easy"

Oops.  Didn't go back to the original post.  Yep, that part does sound like a rope.

Originally posted by SlapShot
 This sounds like "rolling scissors" to me, which in most cases would not get your opponent into a "floating" condition, which in turn gives you the ability to pick him off nice and easy.

Not a rolling scissors.  Imagine a paper clip and lift the two rounded ends so it looks like a bowl from the side.  It's that tight reversal at the top that he's describing and I know how he feels regarding the "floating there" part because if the other plane gets enough seperation that's just what it feels like as he comes back down out of that reversal even tough you still have E.  

Hopefully thats more clear.  Like I said earlier I'm never any good at translating this stuff into words.

[Edit]:  I went back and read the original post again and the reason he is floating there is that he's trying to follow this manouver in a plane that's not suited to it and it's bleeding off all of his E.  He is, in fact, being slowly roped without realizing it.