Then and Now

[Maverick]

I have to agree with Reynolds on the main point of his post. It's the parents that are critical to education more so than the teacher or even the school.

The main critical point of education is the student. As long as the student refuses to learn no school, no book, no teacher will make that studeent put a damn thing in their head.

Part of this conumdrum is the fault of the "new way" to help kids by insuring their "self esteem" is supported even though they have done  nothing to deserve it. Passing failure on is no way to encourage success. Kids know that they can get to the next grade by doing exactly nothing. I've seen it in action where a kid who refuses to do anything more than put his name on a test is passed on through 3 grades. His response when I asked why was that his dad (who had to leave work every day because Jr would not go to school on his own) was a supervisor in a construction company and would give him a job. That and he absolutely knew that he would not be held back.

Kids are successful because they learn that work is the only way to gain real success. Merely handing it to them is training them that the world does indeed owe them a living. It's a recipe for social disaster and a welfare based nation. Living for a handout is not living, it's merely existing.

[Excel1]

Originally posted by lukster
I've heard how nuns are tough and mean yet all of the few people I know who complain about these strict disciplanarians are hard workers and successful. Rather than train our naturally rowdy boys through discipline it's much easier to dope 'em up which is what we do in our schools today. Makes me sick.

You’re not left handed are you?

If you are, and you had of went to my old school you could have expected a nun to wrap you over the knuckles with the edge of a one yard ruler every time you picked a pen up with you left hand. It was their way of converting lefties to the righteous right. That's just one example of what took place as discipline under the nuns.

There's a difference between disciplining rowdy or misbehaving teenagers (that's what corporal punishment was for) and terrorising snot nosed 5 to 11 year olds. Not all the nuns were like that, but the ones that were seemed to be in the majority, and it wasn't so much because they were tough and mean but simply because most of them weren’t cut out to be teachers in the first place. They didn't have the same level of training as teachers in the state run schools and to put it bluntly some them just plain detested kids, especially boys.

My experience goes back nearly 40 years so things have changed a bit since then. Private schools cleaned their act up their act in the 70's. They had to, many of them were almost medieval in comparison with the state schools at the time. My old school nearly closed due to so many parents pulling their kids out of it to send to state schools, but the parish kept it open by kicking the nuns out and hiring qualified teachers outside of the church.

[Reynolds]

Originally posted by Maverick
I have to agree with Reynolds on the main point of his post. It's the parents that are critical to education more so than the teacher or even the school.

The main critical point of education is the student. As long as the student refuses to learn no school, no book, no teacher will make that studeent put a damn thing in their head.

Part of this conumdrum is the fault of the "new way" to help kids by insuring their "self esteem" is supported even though they have done  nothing to deserve it. Passing failure on is no way to encourage success. Kids know that they can get to the next grade by doing exactly nothing. I've seen it in action where a kid who refuses to do anything more than put his name on a test is passed on through 3 grades. His response when I asked why was that his dad (who had to leave work every day because Jr would not go to school on his own) was a supervisor in a construction company and would give him a job. That and he absolutely knew that he would not be held back.

Kids are successful because they learn that work is the only way to gain real success. Merely handing it to them is training them that the world does indeed owe them a living. It's a recipe for social disaster and a welfare based nation. Living for a handout is not living, it's merely existing.

I couldnt agree more! I have even asked fellow students why they dont bother ever doing anything, to which the average response is: "Becuase I dont have to. They will pass me any way"

[rpm]

Originally posted by lukster
Let's not "throw" anyone anywhere. I certainly don't want our bloated beaureaucratic governement, especially it's incompetent educational arm, taking charge of private schools. If a student can't or won't conform to a private schools standards then it's out the door to another school willing to take them on.

It's not a crystal ball that tells me that lax discipline, low standards, and hidden agendas result in the mess we are in today but simply 20/20 hindsight.

Private schools will have to accept the students. They have a voucher.

[lukster]

Originally posted by rpm
Private schools will have to accept the students. They have a voucher.

No way. Lemme rephrase that, hell no. If private schools are forced to accept students by the government then they are no longer private. A voucher is nothing more than the money parents pay in taxes simply made available to them so they can choose the best school for their kids.

[lazs2]

eskimo.. I agree that for vouchers to work the only strings that could be attached to them would be academic.

This would improve all schools as parents and taxpayers would see within a very short time that expelling the "bad apples" the ones who gain nothing by being there but destroy the chances of everyone else... that by getting rid of them the whole system changes.  

Regardless... competition and new ideas are allways good things.   The public school system is broken because it is a government run monopoly... it won't get better so long as there is no meaningful competition... the teachers union has a stranglehold on any real reform from the other end.

your example of parents bieng able to pass their children does not condem the parents so much as it does the faulty politicaly run institution that would allow it.

And let's get honest here... schools get money based on enrollment.. they keep kids that are worthless to pad their budget.   Many systems won't pay for kids that are held back..  that is what is causing the problem.   Private schools get paid per student too but they are honest and wise enough to know that they can't do their job by greedily keeping every student no matter how disruptive.

No matter what...  they wouldn't just take every law that governs public schools and transfer it to the private...  they are not stupid enough to try... even the most socialist amoung us would wonder when the private schools said "no thanks"   Just as habitat for humanity said "no thanks" to the strings and the money until forced to by jimmy carter and co.   they have ruined habitat for humanity.

Public schools... the schooling system is not habitat tho... it is too large and affects to many of us...  that is why they can't allow any light on the subject... that is why they can allow no choice...  as soon as any choice is offered... the wool comes off peoples eyes...   Everything they do to sabotage the voucher system will be out in the open and discussed.

But... maybe.. as you say.. there is a public school somewhere that offers both achievement and economy...  it will do fine.  the private school using vouchers built next to it will do better for cheaper tho i8n my opinion.

It is (to keep the apples theme)  apples to apples... good neighborhood.... the public schools do good but the private one next door does just a little better for cheaper... bad neighborhood... the public school does worse than the private one next to it.   That is the way the studies I have seen seem to run.

you want apples to oranges... the best students in the best neighborhoods in public schools with the most resources against the cheapest private in the worst neighborhoods.

In any case... the public school system is a failing one and getting worse while getting more expensive and all the institution and it's union teachers cronies can do is point the finger of blame at the parents and kids.

lazs