Need Help with a Research Project

[midnight Target]

OK, I'll play, but don't expect me to allow you to set the parameters of the discussion.

You basically stated there were 3 "competing arguments" as to "who determines inappropriateness".

1. The Bible which you said was the one true source for right and wrong.
2. Government, of which you gave some wonderful examples like Hitler and Stalin... very even handed of you.
3. Personal preference... like the hulking brute next door who thinks pedophilia is just fine with him.

Good grief man. Do your parishoners fall for these one sided pieces of fluff? This is a classic straw man argument and I hope most of the readers of this BBS see it for what it is.

I guess my biggest problem with your philosophy is not the teachings of Jesus, but the fear mongering perpetrated by people like yourself and others in your profession. Why attack others if your message is so strong? Why not compare your philosophy to the best of the others in this wide world than to the worst? Afraid it won't match up?
 
So no, I don't think I'll argue point for point with your premise that there is the Bible and then there are those other horrible methods that lead to sin and degradation. Maybe you need to expand your knowledge base instead of trying to narrow that of others.

[rpm]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello RPM,



Who is to say what is inappropriate? Well RPM, traditionally there are three competing arguments as to who determines "inappropriateness"; the first is that we determine it by a fixed and unchanging standard established by an absolute authority. At one time in Western society, that standard was the Bible. I would still argue that that is the only true and coherent standard for right and wrong, but obviously I'm in a decided minority in the modern world.

The transition that was initially made after the bible and still quite popular, is that government decides what is and is not appropriate. Occasionally this is done simply by dictat when an absolute ruler imposes his preferences on the people (as in the case of Stalin, Hitler, etc.) sometimes it is done by the consensus of an oligarchy (such as the Supreme Court in the USA) or sometimes it is done via a 51% vote of the people. Either way, what happens is that preferences of individuals are imposed and become the standard until the balance of power shifts or the preferences change.

The manner of decision that many people naturally prefer however, is that they decide what is inappropriate and what isn't according to their personal preferences and simply act in accordance with their decision. The problems with this are that no social compact is possible using this method and when widely applied it usually makes people scream for an authoritarian version of option #2. Let me give you an example, let us say that you are a hulking brute of a man and you decide that it is entirely "appropriate" for you to have a sexual relationship with your neighbors six year old son. Your neighbor is a single mom, and she cannot stop you herself, if she doesn't agree with your definition of "appropriate" she will need either outside help, either via clan or society or she'll have to kill you with a firearm. We might aplaud her decision to do so, but what if she decided to kill you for having a consensual sexual relationship with her 33 year old daughter, which she did not believe was "appropriate"? Obviously a uniform standard for where the general borders of appropriate and inappropriate lie needs to be set and agreed upon in any society lest we become a pack of wild dogs.  

Personally, I am happy that even though our society has abandoned natural law and now makes up the rules as it goes along, the majority still feel that things like child porn, sexual fantasies involving children, and sexual relationships with children are "inappropriate." I am not looking forward to the day that NAMBLA fantasizes about when the age of consent is dropped to something like 11 or 12 and you and can no longer legally shield our children from adult predators. As for your scenario, the average age of most respondents here, like you and I, is well over 21, and in our age bracket we are talking about something a little more serious than high school seniors dating the sophmore girls.



RPM, even the word "cheating" is biased and implies that there is something wrong with that action. Heck, even the phrased "cheated on a test" implies a bias and moral stigma. Should I have said "harvested answers from other sources not approved by the test giver" to avoid that stigma? Where do we come to the end of all this "there is no right and wrong" babble? Do you really want to live in an entirely user defined society? "How dare you say flying a plane into the Twin Towers is 'inappropriate', that is because you have an infidel bias, it is a good and glorious thing to me, I demand you stop using the biased term "act of terrorism"!

- SEAGOON

Hello Seagoon,
Uh, wow. I did'nt realise I had triggered so much anger inside of you. I really did not intend to do so. Thanks for portraying me as a rapist, tho. Good show. I'm sorry your conversation with the young girl went poorly, but you have to understand what the youth of the nation have seen. They have watched scandal and abuse run rampant thruout religion. Do as I say, not as I do. They are jaded. My reference to Morel Orel is about a Davey and Goliath parody. Sorry, I try to mix a bit of humor with my spirituality.

I was just pointing out some clarification of the points in question would be appropriate to achive the answers I thought you were seeking. But, you have raised a couple points I'd like to redress.

If you were looking for NAMBLA types and not Seniors dating Sophmores then make it more clear in the question. Age of consent varies from state to state, so the question would get answers that would queer your research. See where I'm going? It was too vague and I tried to point it out. Personally, I'd like to see it more uniform and up to 18 nationwide. Child molesters should get 1 strike and your out.


The question "I have engaged in an inappropriate physical relationship with someone other than my spouse" is so wide open for interpretation there is no way you can get legitemate info. What if I'm single and have no spouse? The question assumes I'm married. My version gives a more defined data.

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about research. If you want white noise for data I'll sit down and be quiet.

[BlkKnit]

Originally posted by Silat
" I cannot fathom why anyone would look into a poll like this and then complain about there being a poll like this."

You are kidding right?
Same reason that the religious get upset when they see anything printed/said that is the opposite of what they believe.

But, but, bu-ut.  If your not religious, then why does it matter?  Why wouldn't you just put on a goofy grin, nod slowly and walk away.  

I can see where religious folks need to work at it.  I know I should work harder at it.  I dont see where those who are not religious should work this hard at it.  Whats the point?  Whats to gain?

Its almost like this bbs has become to me now, as church-goers were to me in my youth.  I mean, yes the poll seems like it will garner results only in a certain range.  Isn't that what polls are supposed to do?  For a poll to be truly fair it should ask every possible question known to man and each of those asked in various ways.  Thats my simple minded opinion and I say that without sarcasm.  I am not well educated, have never taken a class on polls, religion, politics or higher math.

I am not really trying to pick a fight here, I just find myself heating up a bit over some of the attitudes: that because I believe in God that I am somehow inferior, a mindless moron following an ancient voodoo that was written on the backs of cereal boxes or something.  Believe me, I have been on the other side of this argument and I dont tell someone they are immoral just because they do not profess the Christian faith.  Why should anyone tell me that I'm a mindless fool if I do?

[BlkKnit]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Just because something agrees with the Bible doesn't prove the Bible is the singular moral authority in the world.

For example...

I rescued the weak from the hand of one stronger than he when I was able;
I gave bread to the hungry, clothing [to the naked], a landing for the boatless.
I buried him who had no son,
I made a boat for him who had no boat,
I respected my father, I pleased my mother,
I nurtured their children.

Sounds familiar?

It is from the autobiography of Nefer-seshem-re of the 5th dynasty of Egypt.

I don't think he ever read the Bible.

Thats cool.  seriously.

I dont think I am saying what is in my heart here.  This is all starting to look like 2 giant walls a mile apart.  They face each other with little heed of what lies between and never getting closer.

Religion or faith isn't morality, it isn't a requirement for morality IMO.  I know some folks who are just the opposite, well, nevermind, I'm sure you know some too.  They seem to be everywhere in my experience.  

But again my argument of:
"Is there a morality that stands in contrast to the Bible? If so, how can it be moral?"
remains valid I think, historical ties being what they were and free thinkers spreading ideas, makes me wonder if maybe the fellow above had indeed read the Bible, in some form or another?

[Seagoon]

Hi MT,

Thank you for your patience, and for interacting with the rest of the post. I'm afraid I don't have much time to write as I have to be at a concert in a little while, I'll try to write a little more later.

Originally posted by midnight Target
OK, I'll play, but don't expect me to allow you to set the parameters of the discussion.

You basically stated there were 3 "competing arguments" as to "who determines inappropriateness".

1. The Bible which you said was the one true source for right and wrong.
2. Government, of which you gave some wonderful examples like Hitler and Stalin... very even handed of you.
3. Personal preference... like the hulking brute next door who thinks pedophilia is just fine with him.

Actually, I stated that the general theory was that there were three competeing theories for determining the parameters for appropriate or inappropriate:

1) A fixed and unchanging standard
2) A floating standard, fixed for a time by government either by declaration or some level of consensus
3) Individual autonomy

Obviously several religions such as Christianity and Islam teach that we should only really rely on number one, and if there really is a God and He has made His will known to men, then it follows that we should obey it. Obviously, Christianity and Islam disagree fundamentally on which revelation is true and which is false, but they agree on what should be the final source of instruction. You no doubt would disagree not only with making the Bible the final arbiter of our ethical decisions, mores, etc. but would be opposed to the entire notion of option #1.

My point regarding number 3 was that absolute individual autonomy, while it  may seem attractive, makes any form of civilized society impossible.  So that leaves you with option #2 and having government of one form or another setting the standards for us and facing the fact that those standards will thus constantly be in flux as laws change and governments come and go.  Those standards will seldom be as bad as the could be or as good as they could be either (as far as the fixed standard I adhere to would describe good and bad) and generally evil will be restrained to some degree or another by civil government unless that government is itself given over to the perpetration of evil.

Anyway, more later, I have to get going.

- SEAGOON

PS: RPM, I wasn't angry, sorry if I came over that way. I'm more saddened than anything else. It seems like after so much water here on the OC has gone under the bridge, if you leave for a while you return to square one. Cest La Vie...

[midnight Target]

Actually Seagoon you couldn't be more wrong. I think that there most certainly are an unchanging set or morals (with minor fluctuations over the centuries) that all humans should live by. I think they exist in the absence of religion and I think that no religion holds a monopoly on those morals.

[lasersailor184]

My point regarding number 3 was that absolute individual autonomy, while it may seem attractive, makes any form of civilized society impossible.

Disagree.  And when people say that countries would resort to chaos without government, what they really mean is that they will resort to chaos without government.

It's that sheep mentality.  Even if the sheep dog eats a third of the herd every year, it's comforting for them to have the sheep dog there.

[Seagoon]

Hello Guys,

First, please forgive me, as you may have already sussed-out, my current schedule isn't leaving me with much time to talk or respond here and I'm not going to be able to do justice to any sort of proper discussion with the limited time I currently have to work with. Perhaps when things go from boil to simmer...

Second, thanks to everyone who helped out by taking my admittedly imperfect survey. I'm going to post the results here from the original group and the AH BB. (If you'd like to discuss the results with some of the gentlemen/ladies in the other group. I can invite a few of them over.) Obviously the percentages are off, because they reflect total number of answers not the number of people taking the poll. The total number of poll takers in both groups was roughly the same, btw.

Anyway here they are, make of them what you will, both votes were anonymous, second group did not know another group would be asked the same questions - differences in vote tallies vs. the other poll are in parentheses:


AH BB GROUP ANSWERS
POLL QUESTION: PERSONAL ETHICS AND RELIGION POLL -

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- I am a male, 33 votes, 11.42% (+3)
- I am a female, 0 votes, 0.00% (-4)
- I am a minister, elder, deacon, in a church, a missionary, seminary professor, or other religious professional , 3 votes, 1.04% (-16)
- I have a daily schedule of private prayer and devotional bible reading , 1 votes, 0.35% (-13)
- I pray and read the bible devotionally in private but not on a daily basis , 7 votes, 2.42% (-10)
- I never or almost never have a time of private prayer and devotional bible reading , 20 votes, 6.92% (+15)
- I have cheated on an exam or test and not publicly confessed it , 12 votes, 4.15% (+5)
- I have broken a vow or an oath sworn before God and not publicly confessed it , 12 votes, 4.15% (+9)
- I occasionally tell lies when it is to my advantage to do so , 21 votes, 7.27% (+15)
- I frequently tell lies when it is to my advantage to do so , 3 votes, 1.04% (+3)
- I have an addiction (to something serious other than AH2 - drugs, porn, alcohol, nicotine, something you feel powerless to stop doing), 11 votes, 3.81% (+9)
- I do family devotions/worship on a daily basis , 2 votes, 0.69% (-7)
- I sometimes do family devotions/worship , 5 votes, 1.73% (-10)
- I have no practice of family devotions/worship, 22 votes, 7.61% (+20)
- I pretend not to be a racist, but secretly I have racist thoughts/opinions , 8 votes, 2.77% (+7)
- I am openly racist and/or don't think there is a problem with that , 5 votes, 1.73% (+5)
- I sometimes steal, submit false expense reports or commit some other form of business fraud , 8 votes, 2.77% (+7)
- I have engaged in an inappropriate physical relationship with someone other than my spouse , 10 votes, 3.46% (+9)
- I have engaged in an inappropriate emotional relationship with someone other than my spouse , 10 votes, 3.46% (+9)
- I have had inappropriate thoughts about minors (please only answer if you are over 18), 11 votes, 3.81% (+10)
- I am sometimes guilty of gossiping, 23 votes, 7.96% (+6)
- On a few rare occasions, I have succumbed to the temptation to view pornography , 11 votes, 3.81% (-3)
- I frequently view pornography , 23 votes, 7.96% (+21)
- I sometimes drink beyond moderation or simply get drunk , 18 votes, 6.23% (+16)
- I sometimes use illegal drugs or abuse prescription drugs , 10 votes, 3.46% (+10)

EVANGELICAL REFORMED CHRISTIAN DISCUSSION GROUP ANSWERS

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- I am a male, 30 votes, 17.24%
- I am a female, 4 votes, 2.30%
- I am an officer in the church, a missionary, or seminary professor, 19 votes, 10.92%
- I have a daily schedule of private prayer and devotional bible reading, 14 votes, 8.05%
- I pray and read the bible devotionally in private but not on a daily basis, 17 votes, 9.77%
- I never/almost never have a time of private prayer and devotional bible reading, 5 votes, 2.87%
- I have cheated on an exam or test and not publicly confessed it, 7 votes, 4.02%
- I have broken a vow or an oath sworn before God and not publicly confessed it, 3 votes, 1.72%
- I occasionally tell lies when it is to my advantage to do so, 6 votes, 3.45%
- I frequently tell lies when it is to my advantage to do so, 0 votes, 0.00%
- I have a sinful addiction, 2 votes, 1.15%
- I do family devotions/worship on a daily basis, 9 votes, 5.17%
- I sometimes do family devotions/worship, 15 votes, 8.62%
- I have no practice of family devotions/worship, 2 votes, 1.15%
- I pretend not to be a racist, but secretly I have racist thoughts/opinions, 1 votes, 0.57%
- I am openly racist and/or don't think there is a problem with that, 0 votes, 0.00%
- I sometimes steal, submit false expense reports or commit some other form of business fraud, 1 votes, 0.57%
- I have engaged in an inappropriate physical relationship with someone other than my spouse, 2 votes, 1.15%
- I have engaged in an inappropriate emotional relationship with someone other than my spouse, 1 votes, 0.57%
- I have had inappropriate thoughts about minors, 1 votes, 0.57%
- I am sometimes guilty of gossiping, 17 votes, 9.77%
- On a few rare occasions, I have succumbed to the temptation to view pornography, 14 votes, 8.05%
- I frequently view pornography, 2 votes, 1.15%
- I sometimes drink beyond moderation or simply get drunk, 2 votes, 1.15%
- I sometimes use illegal drugs or abuse prescription drugs, 0 votes, 0.00%

[DREDIOCK]

Looks to me like you only have 1 or 2 completely honest people in YOUR group  

[Debonair]

i bet there were a lot of porno guys who almost finished the web poll thing, but when they got to the porn questions said "o yeah, PORN!!!!" then it was off to pron.com & they were all like "CHICKS!!! KEWL!!!:aok "

[AWMac]

I am a Man.

I am not without Sin.

I've asked for forgiveness...with my Heart.

I believe that the GOD that I know has washed me of my Sins.

Yet I have not to prove anything to a mortal man my beliefs.

Mac

[Mustaine]

to be honest I am confused by the results

- I am a male, 33 votes, 11.42% (+3)
- I am a female, 0 votes, 0.00% (-4)
- I am a minister, elder, deacon, in a church, a missionary, seminary professor, or other religious professional , 3 votes, 1.04% (-16)

how is 91.66% of the voters only making up 11.42% of the votes?

that makes all the other numbers funny to me

[Seagoon]

Hi Mustaine,

Originally posted by Mustaine
to be honest I am confused by the results


 

how is 91.66% of the voters only making up 11.42% of the votes?

that makes all the other numbers funny to me

The stats in their present form aren't of much use, they are based on the total number of votes not on the total number of voters. So 33 was 11.42% of the total votes cast in the poll.

To be really useful, you would need to add together the I am a male, I am a female figures and then express each results as a percentage of that number.

For instance, there were 33 total participants on the AH side. Of that percentage 3 of the participants were religious professionals.  So 9% of the respondents are religious professionals.

If someone has time, they could do the math on a calc in a few mins (I'll try to get to it but no promises, I'm supposed to be teaching 1000 years of church history tonight).

- SEAGOON