Author Topic: curious - rear mirrors  (Read 1939 times)

Offline 53gunner

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curious - rear mirrors
« on: January 06, 2007, 10:47:40 PM »
Hi Im just curious here why don't we get rear view mirrors? I know a lot of the A/C had em
Glenn

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2007, 10:50:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 53gunner
Hi Im just curious here why don't we get rear view mirrors? I know a lot of the A/C had em
Glenn


Real pilots didn't have Server Lag.
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Offline Murdr

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2007, 11:21:14 PM »
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Originally posted by hitech

1. Think of the size that the mirror would be on your screen, Then envision how what you see now looking forward has to be compressed into that small area, and then how small the objects would be,or more precisly how most planes could not be seen.

2. To make a mirror is realy displaying 2 different views at once, hence you almost 1/2 frame rate.

Offline GunnerCAF

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Re: curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2007, 11:25:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 53gunner
Hi Im just curious here why don't we get rear view mirrors? I know a lot of the A/C had em
Glenn


I don't know, but we do have necks that pivot 360 degrees.  I am not sure a mirror would do much better then a snap 6 OC view and would just eat up frame rate.

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Offline Husker

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2007, 11:49:07 PM »
It would allow us to see past that damned seat without having to arrow around it.... not to mention that it is historally accurate. But I also agree, Lag is an issue. Maybe make them options you can turn on and off?

Offline thndregg

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Re: Re: curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2007, 11:49:42 PM »
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
I don't know, but we do have necks that pivot 360 degrees.  


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Offline Lusche

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2007, 12:23:43 AM »
Another point: look how tiny our cockpit on screen is. Then put a small mirror in/on it like the spitfire had. I think resolution and screen size is not big enough to make it really helpful. And like somebody else said: If you can really see the enemy in that mirror, you are already in very deep dodo...
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Offline Old Sport

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2007, 12:30:02 AM »
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Originally posted by Husker
It would allow us to see past that damned seat without having to arrow around it.... not to mention that it is historally accurate. But I also agree, Lag is an issue. Maybe make them options you can turn on and off?


Do you have your views set? You should only have to arrow around once - set it - and then all is good.

Targetware has mirrors on planes that show moving sky but no planes. So it adds a bit to realism, till you get shot down from behind while lookin at the purdy mirror.

Offline Lusche

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2007, 01:06:38 AM »
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Originally posted by Old Sport

Targetware has mirrors on planes that show moving sky but no planes. So it adds a bit to realism, till you get shot down from behind while lookin at the purdy mirror.


Hehe, I can imagine the cries on CH200: "WAAAH, was shot by invisible plane, cheaters!!!!" :D
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Offline eh

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2007, 01:16:44 AM »
How did Air Warrior do it? There was no decrease in FR even in a thick furball when you used the rear view mirror, even in AW3D. If I remember correctly the mirror was in the Forward Up view, and took up at least half your screen if not more.

How come there is no decrease in frame rate in AH when I switch to external view and pan when I am in a bomber formation with lots of other aircraft around? That pan must be more difficult to do than one single fixed view out of a mirror, no?

Inquiring minds want to know because rear view mirrors would make a GREAT improvement to this game.

As far as I know AW was the only flight sim to have mirrors. However, if you are unhappy with the 6 view in Aces High, you should try Warbirds. The 6 view there is codawful, and there is no looking around the seat. It's so bad, it drove me out of the game altogether. Well, that and a dozen other inadequacies.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 01:24:53 AM by eh »

Offline Benny Moore

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2007, 02:34:34 AM »
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Originally posted by eh
As far as I know AW was the only flight sim to have mirrors.


Lock On: Modern Air Combat has working mirrors, as does the lousy IL-2 series.

Offline Mustaine

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2007, 03:02:28 AM »
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Originally posted by Husker
It would allow us to see past that damned seat without having to arrow around it.... not to mention that it is historally accurate. But I also agree, Lag is an issue. Maybe make them options you can turn on and off?
someone doesn't know about F10 (save head position) and using the arrow keys to move back and forth.


if you have the free JS buttons try it.... other than that with all the saved views you can have there are only 2 or 3 planes that really NEED you to move side to side and look "directly" behind
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Offline Brooke

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2007, 03:06:10 AM »
I think the key to a mirror's success in AH would be a separate view devoted just to looking in the mirror (i.e., not as part of the normal foward view).  This gets around both the frame-rate issue and the size issue.

Fortunately, because AH lets us move our heads and save the view, mirrors are less necessary.  Still, it might be nice in some planes that have (regardless of head movement) poor rear views.

I feel sorry for the WWIIOL pilots who can neither move their heads nor look in a mirror.  That's one the failings of flight in that game.

Offline Kweassa

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2007, 03:29:32 AM »
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I don't know, but we do have necks that pivot 360 degrees. I am not sure a mirror would do much better then a snap 6 OC view and would just eat up frame rate.


Quote
How did Air Warrior do it? There was no decrease in FR even in a thick furball when you used the rear view mirror, even in AW3D. If I remember correctly the mirror was in the Forward Up view, and took up at least half your screen if not more.


 You guys have to understand the mechanics of how the "illusion" of "3D" is done in computers. A reflection in a mirror in the real world is just what it is - a 'reflection', nothing more. It is nothing more than a set of 'images', an optical phenomenon light creates. When you see a mirror it's not a separate world existing inside that mirror - it's not Alice's world in there.

 However, in computers it is different. A set of images such as reflection on the surface of a mirror is literally a separate piece of 3D modelled in the game. When a computer depicts a mirror in the screen, it's like a whole new "world" created inside that mirror.

 When you sit at your cockpit and look straight back, it's literally just looking back. The system doesn't need to depict a separate, identical, left/right reveresed version of the world behind your plane. However, when you have a mirror, the system must first create the world and the plane behind you (that is actually behind you), and then it has to make another set of the same thing exactly like it, left/right side reveresed, inside your mirror and make it look like a reflective image. The mirror of AW, is a work-around that is essentially nothing but a rear view, and is not an actual mirror.

 In other words, if a reflective image is created inside a computer screen, it means everything is portrayed by the double - and that's counting if there's only one plane behind you. If you are being chased by 4 planes, then the system must make two sets of 4 planes, one set behind your actual plane model, and another miniature set depicted inside your mirror.

 Now, imagine you are in a P-51 passing by an entire bomber wing with a hundred B-17s behind you - you get the picture. The better and more realistic the mirror is done, the more serious its hit on performance.

 ...

 If AH makes a separate, enlarged rear view mirror screen for use, then that's essentially on the same grounds of making a transparent view when you look back(remember European Air War?). It's like cheating. All the disadvantages of being in a plane with bad rear-view is neutralized. There's no way HT is going to have something like that inside this game.

 Therefore, if AH ever sees a rear-view mirror in the game, then it is undoubtably going to be accessible only by looking forward-up, where there would be a mirror, it's actual size, actual location, actual shape. And in that mirror, would the "world" behind your plane be recreated, and when that happens, it is going to hit the system performance really really severely. There's no way around it if you want to see realistic mirrors, instead of some ridicukous full-screen "periscope" view.


 So becareful for what you wish for.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 03:32:11 AM by Kweassa »

Offline DamnedRen

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curious - rear mirrors
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2007, 03:32:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eh
How did Air Warrior do it? There was no decrease in FR even in a thick furball when you used the rear view mirror, even in AW3D. If I remember correctly the mirror was in the Forward Up view, and took up at least half your screen if not more.

How come there is no decrease in frame rate in AH when I switch to external view and pan when I am in a bomber formation with lots of other aircraft around? That pan must be more difficult to do than one single fixed view out of a mirror, no?

Inquiring minds want to know because rear view mirrors would make a GREAT improvement to this game.

As far as I know AW was the only flight sim to have mirrors. However, if you are unhappy with the 6 view in Aces High, you should try Warbirds. The 6 view there is codawful, and there is no looking around the seat. It's so bad, it drove me out of the game altogether. Well, that and a dozen other inadequacies.


eh,

I'm pretty sure I was around during your drug years :) and I don't ever remember AW, in any version, having a working rear view mirror and when I hit fwd up on my stick I kinda, well, looked...fwd up. Hmmm, if it happened in the 60's I might not have remembered but AW?

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