Author Topic: A New Way Forward In Iraq  (Read 4723 times)

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2007, 02:53:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
No I didn't! ;)


:rofl
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Torque

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« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2007, 02:59:52 PM »

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2007, 03:33:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
I'm just not seeing blaming the Left for this debacle.   The Dems did not control any branch of govenment during this time.  Toad or Lukster, can you supply concrete examples of how the Left is responsible for the mistakes made that have lead to the current situation?    I don't follow your logic at all.    Do we all agree that accepting personal responsibility for one's mistakes is the correct course (as Mr. Bush did in his speech last night)?

Sabre, your statement that the press is responsible for maintaining the national will is surprising to me.   I think the proper role of the press in a democracy is to report the unvarnished truth, period.  You seem to be suggesting that the role of the press is that of a propagandist.      That's a little scary.   Is that right, or do I misunderstand?


Oboe: You misunderstand. What I said was, "In WWII, the press would report bad news, but would also go out of it's way to report when things went right. They understood that maintaining the national will to win was every bit as important as building tanks, planes and ships."

That is, I did not say that the press was "responsible for maintaining the national will," only that focusing almost exclusively on the negative would sap the nations will to perservere.  Back in WWII, they understood the consequence of defeat and would not actively work to undermine the effort.  In this war, they have indeed been active propogandists, but for the terrorists and insurgents!

As for the mistakes made, President Bush has accepted his responsibility for them, even some that he probably couldn't have avoided.  However, I must make the counter-point that the left (embodied in the Democratic party leadership) exacerbated those mistakes by emboldening the enemy in Iraq with their constant amplification of those mistakes, incessant criticism of the whole effort, by denegrating our troops, by leaking and or opposing every measure the Administration has enacted to fight the war, and by themselve going so far as to call the entire war unlawful and the President's actions criminal...all in the name of political expediency.  Remember too that most of those same Dems voted to authorize the war in the first place.  Had they put even half of the energy they've subsequently expended in bashing the President into supporting the War on Terror (which arguably includes Iraq), perhaps it would have been over long ago.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline lukster

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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2007, 04:15:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
Hi Toad,

From your post above:


Eagler, I don't maintain the media is without slant.   I just think it SHOULD be without slant.


In no way will I ever exonerate Bush for his mistakes in Iraq. However, the left has done their damndest to discredit and defame his efforts, especially in the media. This didn't happen in a vacuum.


Sabre said it better.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 04:18:13 PM by lukster »

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2007, 05:11:14 PM »
damn Gee schmoltz!  thanks for digging that one out!  again, I impress myself :)
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Offline Hap

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« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2007, 05:12:53 PM »
Well, I can see we're all agreed then.


hap

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2007, 05:18:55 PM »
whatever happened to the vikings anyway?
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Toad

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« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2007, 05:39:34 PM »
Oboe, I guess text messages don't lend themselves to easy understanding.

Lukster said:

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The left set out to ensure our failure from the beginning. Was more important to them to see Bush fail than it was for America to succeed.


I said:

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I do think there is some truth to that statement.


I think there IS some truth to it.

I believe the Democrats would readily sacrifice longterm national benefit to get at Bush in the short term.

I also believe the Republicans would and have done the same thing at other times.

I truly believe the Democratic party as a whole is more prone to that mindset than the whole of the Republican party.

Did that help?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2007, 05:42:34 PM »
As for honorable intent, Yeager has demonstrated that the intent he approves of in all of this is the removal of a bloody dictator from power and giving that nation's populace an opportunity to hold free elections.

You find that dishonorable?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2007, 05:45:29 PM »
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I believe the Democrats would readily sacrifice longterm national benefit to get at Bush in the short term. - Toad


I believe this too.  The key to understanding this is that the left wing in this country would like to totally trash the Bush persona because they think it will gain them the Whitehouse.  pity.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline john9001

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« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2007, 05:51:01 PM »
some day when a general has had enough of the BS and pulls a military coup you people can sit around and discuss "what went wrong".

Offline BluKitty

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« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2007, 06:22:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
WE?

Toad has it about right. I'm just wondering how long it will be before the dems are blamed for "losing" the war?


Well it's already being attempted.  That's why Bush waited until the new congress was in to do anything.  So if they don't support his idiotic plan, he can blame them.

Many of us, like me, knew occupation of Iraq was a stupid idea in 2002.  They are completly incompentant, except in the area of war profiteering.

This is one big  ....We told you so.  It was a stupid idea from the get go.

We told you so...and I'll tell you agin.  This is another very bad idea.  From a man with a history of bad ideas.

Quote
Originally posted by john9001
some day when a general has had enough of the BS and pulls a military coup you people can sit around and discuss "what went wrong".


Why would there need to be a coup when Blackwell and the Supreme Court decided the last two elections?

Offline john9001

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« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2007, 06:31:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
Well it's already being attempted.  That's why Bush waited until the new congress was in to do anything.  So if they don't support his idiotic plan, he can blame them.

Many of us, like me, knew occupation of Iraq was a stupid idea in 2002.  They are completly incompentant, except in the area of war profiteering.

This is one big  ....We told you so.  It was a stupid idea from the get go.

We told you so...and I'll tell you agin.  This is another very bad idea.  From a man with a history of bad ideas.
 


you have a better plan? lets hear it mon general.

Offline oboe

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« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2007, 07:09:56 PM »
Toad,

Yes, that helped.   Thanks.  

Sabre, thanks for clarifying.     I think we disagree on the role the press played in this particular war, though.   Practically all the mainstream press has been excoriated for not questioning the case for the war in the first place - for bolstering popular support for it from the beginning.   I think I've read numerous accounts of how the mainstream media fell down on the job there.  My misgivings about the press today go much deeper, but I'll save it for another time.    

I think the Left has been much less effective than you guys give it credit for.   In fact I can't think of a single significant impact the Left has had during all of Bush's presidency.   Seems to me like they've been ignored or steamrollered the whole time (prior to 2007).   They've been nothing but whining, simpering, disorganized and incomptetent weaklings.   Now that the ***** is hitting the fan, you guys want to place some blame on them.    I have to chuckle at that, but I find it pathetic at the same time.    This whole thing is Bush and the necons baby.  Even now, all the Left can muster is a non-binding disapproval vote.   Big deal.    

btw I note that Sam Brownback (R), one of Toad's senators, has come out against the troop escalation.    As has Minnesota's Republican senator, Norm Coleman.

FWIW, I don't think Congress can or will stop the escalation or bring the troops home.    I think the Dems think no matter what they do, they will get blamed so its better to make noise but do nothing.   Judging from this board, they might be right.

Just my impressions.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2007, 07:20:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
btw I note that Sam Brownback (R), one of Toad's senators,  


Brownback is a Kansas Senator; you assume too much if you think I voted for him.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!