Mommy, Mommy, big bad plane shot my tank ;)

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
An armor piercing round from an AN-M2 will penetrate 1/2" of face hardened plate at a 30 degree angle from over 600 yards.  The top hull armor of the Panzer IV H is only 12mm(a little less than 1/2").

ummm thks for the data. I readed in a couple of books that it was 20mm,and I used to think that the data was reliable (because typhoon having some problems with 20mm over Normandy against Panzers),so then I must be wrong.  

Don't use the term "tank" generically.  A Panzer IV is not a T-34 or Panther or Tiger.  Even the much maligned Sherman has a lot thicker armor on top than the Panzer IV.
agree 100%  

There's a good reason why the Panzer IV is our first tank.  We're not a tank game and we're not going to put a tank in the game that can't be effectively suppressed when it doesn't have air cover.  In time, we'll put in heavier tanks along with more specialized anti-tank aircraft, but we're not there yet.
Ummm I see your point. But its clear that some people love driving tanks and right now they feel pissed off (and I can understand them) by the cannon hawg. M16 hasnt enough hitting power to give a effective cover and the panzer guys suffer because that. I hope that new AAA vehicles come soon, as the promised heavy tanks  

BTW, the Il-2 originally had a cannon armament of 2 20mm Shvaks.
yep, to kill PanzerIII and early PanzerIV...lighter armor  

If indeed there is a problem, and I'm not denying there could be one, don't whine about it, don't make exaggerations.  That only pulls attention away from the problem and towards the argument.  If you can pop tanks like water balloons, show me a film.  Make me say "oh that ain't right" rather than make me ascertain whether something is valid or just whining.  I don't have that much time in the day.  Thank you.


Pyro, dont take me wrong. I dont whine about this, in fact I rarely go into a tank, and I love to kill'em with LW Mk108.   And a Mk108 was a slow HE round...

I only say that I understand the people whining about it...If the historical situation was that 20mms could penetrate panzer's armor with ease, then I shuddup, but please come with a heavier tank, one that needs a ground attack plane to kill it, not a fast nimble cannon hawg.
I used to love the low lever furballs with M16 and Panzers under us...now that rarely happens. The 30K guy is back,and I am sure that it is because noone dares to drive a Panzer to an enemy field, because if a Hawg spawns, they are done.

IMHO if you added a PanzerIV is for the people to have a good time driving them, not to be 100% pissed off by the "·$"%"·$% guy in the F4U. I agree this is a aircraft simulation, but the ground attac role was of paramount importance, as the armor killing.

Thanks for your time  


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-15-2000).]

[Cobra]

Guys,
Put this whole tank thing in perspective....just a very short while ago, we didn't even have drivable ground vehicles here and nobody was threatening to leave.  It's an evolutionary thing here.

That night I took out Mighty's column in a -1C should not be the case I agree, but I was in some kind of zone.  Yesterday, I was not, just as Gronk, he filled me with lots of 75mm lead.

But we also haven't really worked on tank tactics yet either.  Tanks roll from V43 to the Rook city which is right next to Rook A9 without suppressing that field at all.  Ofcourse the column should get nailed from a nearby enemy airfield.

Without providing an Air Umbrella over the tankers,  they will get decimated.  Is the cannons on the Hawg right or wrong...I don't know, but I do know that rolling an armored column without air cover is definately wrong.  Especially rolling one next to an enemy airfield without first suppressing that field.  

Maverick has some great info on another thread regarding his real-life experiences in tankers.  And AKWabbits points in this thread are well made, and I agree with him.

I think we just need to keep it in perspective is all.  Let the tactics develop and evolve.  Hell, this game is evolving and we are the ones actually helping to shape it.  Ofcourse, I pay my hard-earned money for this, so I guess its not a bad trade-off.

When I get frustrated, I try different things...fly different planes, buff for a while, fly different styles, or sometimes, just take a break and step back.  Then I come back in and its a new experience again.

Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille

[pzvg]

The missing factor in the ground component, COVER! there ain't any, I was in armor for several years, we would not move on a battlefield like this unless we were assured the bad guys had no air support, this place is a DAT's nightmare. When we moved up to the LOD (Line Of Departure) we moved from treeline to treeline, making highspeed dashes across the deadly open ground, here you are basically a target for the planes to hit,so get used to it. You aren't gonna see any really good groundwarfare tactics evolve until, or unless the gang at HTC comes up with something to hide in. Don't bother crying for a Ostwind or the like, it won't make too much difference sitting out in the open screaming "kill me" 'cuz no matter how deadly the guns, it can only engage one incoming at a time.BTW Pyro, your data on the MkIV is dead on vice top penetration, but something seems odd about IV's vice extermely close HE blasts, these boys can let a 1000lbr go off next to them and maybe lose a track, 'stead of ending up upside down. Could you illuminate for me how the HE damage calculation works? I don't know enough about your model to draw a conclusion

------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[AKDejaVu]

A tank should not stand a chance against an attack plane.  That is too simple to argue.

The argument against cover is valid.  The main defense for tanks from aircraft was cover... an option that isn't available here.  The only solution I see to this problem is to remove the icon from tanks.  Once they are spotted.. they are dead meat.  Just make them harder to spot.

AKDejaVu

[flakbait]

Apparently no one noticed the topic in the Aircraft & Vehicles Board where I posted the armor thickness and angle for the PanzerIV H.
Here they are, again, to make sure you get it right.

 

Armor:

Hull Front: (80mm) 3.2 in @80º
Hull Sides: (30mm) 1.2 in @90º
Hull Rear: (20mm) .8 in @78°
Turret Front: (50mm) 2 in @79º
Turret Sides: (30mm) 1.2 in @64º
Turret Rear: (30mm) 1.2 in @74º
Turret Roof: (10mm) .4 in @74º

If you need any other Panzer specs, gimme a yell.

Flakbait

[Pongo]

What is the source for your numbers..
I got 15mm turret and 16mm hull top for the Panzer IV H. That is from After the Battle -Panzers in Normandy a very excellent book BTW. I dont think that it would matter against a well placed burst of 20mm but it might cut down on a few kills..

[Karnak]

flakbait, what is the thickness of the Hull Roof?  I don't see that listed.

Sisu

[Hooligan]

AKDejaVu made an excellent point.  In the real world AFVs also made use of night and inclement weather to avoid air attack, an option that is unavailable in AH.  Another thing to remember is that 20mm AP shouldn't have any problem taking the tracks off of any WWII tank made, and a mobility kill on a tank is probably as good as a complete kill in most cases for AH.

Hooligan

[Mighty1]

As a tanker in AH I don't think it's a issue of how strong the guns are in a 1C but of how easy a tank is seen.

As everyone a mentioned in real life the tank tried to hide under cover as much as possible..something we can't do here.

Our tanks can be seen from D8 or farther and have no hope of hiding.

I think the best solution is to decrease the visability of the tank to around D3.

------------------
Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"

[Jack55]

This web site had PzKpfw IV H data:
 http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/fpz4h.htm

I don't play the game yet, but I would think that the hispano armed fighter would have to come in steep (>60 degrees w/ground) and low to score a tank kill by gun.  Thus making the pull out less than easy.

[funked]

Good answer Pyro!