Author Topic: Bf 109 video  (Read 4534 times)

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #120 on: January 25, 2007, 07:32:08 PM »
good stuff from everyone, im enjoying the learning.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #121 on: January 25, 2007, 08:23:03 PM »
Now, don't take this post the wrong way. It is in no way meant as a slight to the Spitfire, it was an excellent aircraft. The purpose of this post is to show that the 109's landing characteristics and loss-rate due to accidents was not untypical for WWII fighters.


A quick google and…


Quote
Now comes the only tricky part about flying the Spit, I found the aircraft is easily landed by a slight hold off, touching down on the main wheels with the tail wheel a foot off the ground. This allows for an adequate view over the nose and good directional control due to the relatively high speed at this stage of the landing. The view is still adequate over the nose in this attitude and directional control is good. However after lowering the tail to the ground, you have to be positive and quick with rudder inputs as with no steerable tail wheel and no slipstream over the tail (throttle closed), you have to dance on the rudder a bit to keep her straight. With that narrow track undercarriage, any swing must be stopped quickly, or it could fast develop into a ground loop. Can get interesting in a crosswind! Braking to help directional control can be used but with caution as the brakes fade when they get hot, and you could put her on her nose.

James Feuilherade, Spitfire pilot.


That sounds almost exactly what pilots say about landing the 109…


Quote
At the outbreak of war, 306 mk1 Spitfires had been delivered and 36 of these had been destroyed in training accidents.


More than 10% of all delivered Spitfires destroyed in accidents in just a few months…


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Early "rhubarbs" failed to tempt the Luftwaffe into the skies.  So bombers were sent over, with fighter escorts. The first was staged on 10 January 1941, consisting of 6 Blenheims and 6 Squadrons of Hurricanes and Spitfires. It cost the RAF the loss of 1 Hurricane with 2 Spitfires written off in landing accidents, 1 fatal.


Example of a typical channel raid. 2 spitfires lost in landing accidents, one killing the pilot…


Quote
LF Mk.XVIe, TB863 (c/n CBAF-10895, ZK-XVI) It is currently the only airworthy Spitfire operating in New Zealand. The aircraft (c/n CBAF10895, ex G-CDAN) was originally built in late 1944, entering RAF service on February 27 1945 with 19 MU at St.Athan. In March it was issued to 453(Australia) SQN at Matlask, Norfolk and coded FU-P. It later served with 183, 567, and 691 Squadrons. While with 3 CAACU at Exeter it suffered category 5 damage in a takeof accident on July 17 1951 and was struck off charge on September 28 1951. The aircraft was subsequently acquired by MGM and used in the 1955 movie "Reach for the Sky". It was then stored until the filming of the movie " The Battle of Britain". The aircraft was acquired by A.W.(Bill) Francis on December 11 1968 and moved to Southend where it was stored in his garden, then later moved to a Museum at the local airport. In July 1974 a move to Duxford was made with a view to restoration at the Imperial War Museum, but this did not occur and the aircraft returned to its owner in 1977. The aircraft was moved again in October 1982 to Personal Plane Services at Booker. Restoration began, and the aircraft was registered G-CDAN on November 30. The aircraft was subsequently sold to the Fighter Collection in 1985 who continued the restoration. It was purchased by Sir Tim Wallis in 1986, and restoration continued at Duxford. The first post restoration flight was made by Stephen Grey on September 14 1988. The aircraft was shipped to New Zealand with its first local flight (also by Stephen Grey) on January 25 1989. The aircraft was successfully displayed in Auckland, but on the flight south to Wanaka had fuel problems. The aircraft made a forced landing in a paddock neighbouring the Waipukurau Aerodrome. SAFE Air at Woodbourne carried out repairs, and the aircraft returned to the air on April 7th 1990. The aircraft was again damaged in an accident at RNZAF Woodbourne on November 18 1992 when the aircraft developed a swing landing on wet grass and the undercarriage collapsed after striking a taxiway. SAFE Air again carried out the repairs, and the aircraft was returned to the air in early 1994. Today the aircraft is airworthy and based with the Alpine Fighter Collection at Luggate airfield near Wanaka.


One take-off and two landing accidents on a single Spit…


Quote
FR Mk.XIV, NH799 (ZK-XIV) is currently under restoration to flying condition at Ardmore. Originally built at Aldermaston, it was taken on charge by the RAF on February 16, 1945. Initially with 9 MU at Cosford, it was transferred in May to 215 MU prior to despatch to India on July 2nd. After arriving on July 28, 1945 the aircraft was attached to Air Command South East Asia and served with 49 Squadron. On December 29, 1947 the aircraft was passed to the Indian Air Force. A gap in the aircraft's records ends when Doug Arnold purchased and shipped the aircraft back to the UK in 1981. The aircraft was subsequently stored at Blackbushe and Bitteswell until it was acquired by The Fighter Collection and restoration began in 1986. The wings had been completed along with some work on the fuselage when the aircraft was sent to Historic Flying Ltd for completion in 1993. While restoration was underway there, the aircraft was sold to the Alpine Fighter Collection. The first post restoration flight was made on January 21, 1994 as G-BUZU. After testing the aircraft was shipped on February 14 to New Zealand where it was registered ZK-XIV. Flight testing was conducted on March 31 and the aircraft then displayed at the Warbirds over Wanaka show during the next three days. The aircraft was badly damaged along with Sir Tim Wallis in an accident on Jan 2nd, 1996 at Wanaka. The aircraft was purchased from the insurers by Brian Hare of Hamilton and American partner Paul Page . The aircraft is still on the New Zealand register - initially listed to PAC Ltd, the register know lists the aircraft to a the Aviation Trading Company Ltd of Cambridge. Restoration commenced in 1997 with AvSpecs Ltd in Rotorua and continues, although the company is now at Ardmore.


Another warbird Spit that crashed…


Quote
LF Mk.IXc MK732 (c/n CBAF-IX-1732) was taken on charge by the RAF on March 8 1944 at 39 MU. The aircraft was issued to 485(NZ) Squadron on April 25 and coded OU-Q. Damaged in an accident it spent time with 41 RSU, and major battle damage resulted in repairs at 1 CRU (Cowley) before returning to the squadron. The aircraft was put into storage by 39 MU in December 1944. In June 1948 it was passed to the RNAF where it initially went into storage again at Leeuwarden. From April 1951 it served as H-25 with the Jacht Vlieg Fighter school at Twente and (after repairs at Fokker) 322 Squadron (coded 3W-17) at Soesterberg. Retired in September 1953, the aircraft was struck off charge on June 4 1954 and moved to Eindhoven for use as a decoy. Illicitley acquired as a gate guard by 14 Squadron RAF, the aircraft was held at Oldenburg, Ahlhorn, and Gutersloh. It was moved to the UK by Belfast on June 27 1969, and stored at St.Athan and Bicester. In October 1974 it was passed to the BBMF for spares. The largely intact remains went back to the Netherlands in March 1984 and were subsequently stored at Gilze-Rijen from 1985. In 1990 the aircraft was acquired for restoration by what would become the Dutch Spitfire Flight. Final assembly took place in the UK where the first post-restoration flightwas made in Pete Kynsey's hands at Lydd on June 10, 1993. Registered as G-HVDM to DSG(Guernsey) Ltd, the aircraft was delivered to the Dutch Spitfire Flight on June 26. The aircraft appeared in the colours of 485(NZ) Squadron aircraft OU-U "Baby Bea V" for the 50th anniversary of D-day. Damaged in a landing accident on August 8 1995 at Rochester, the aircraft was returned to the air in November 1997. Today the aircraft is registered as PH-OUQ and based at Gilze Rijen where it operates in 322 Squadron RNAF colours coded 3W-17.


Another… This one suffered two accidents in its time, one as a warbird in 1995…


I think that will do for now.

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #122 on: January 25, 2007, 08:45:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
good stuff from everyone, im enjoying the learning.

Heh.  Just to add a couple of extras that no one has yet hit:

Willi Heilmann's book, "I Fought You From the Skies," contains this observation, made as he landed near Paris during the Luftwaffe buildup after the June 6 invasion (Heilmann was joining JG54).  While there is good reason to distrust much of what Heilmann wrote in his memoirs, certainly there is no particular reason to wonder about this (at pages 19-20 of the 1966 Award Books version):

At the side of the flarepath I spotted the camouflaged fighters in their dispersal pens.  Mechanics rushed up.  I raised my canopy.

"Is the III/Fighter Wing 54 stationed here?"

"No, you've come to the wrong shop," drawled one of the ground staff with a Berlin accent.

"But there are fighters over there."  I did not need to wait for an answer.  They were fighters, all right, but they had pointed noses and small bandy legs.  They were the famous and much-hated Messerschmidt 109s.



Also, one of JG26's three Gruppen was equipped with 109s from early 1943 until January, 1945, while the I and II Gruppen had FW 190s.  The 109 Gruppe's declining morale is very well traced by Caldwell's book, "JG 26," which includes this passage (at pages 241-242 of the 1991 Ivy Books version):

The unit was proving unable to best even the enemy's fighter-bombers, which were piloted, it was to be assumed, by young men with as little experience in air-to-air combat as Mietusch's average enlisted pilot.  His Bf 109s were slower than every Allied fighter type at low altitude, severley limiting his pilots' chances of escaping from an unfavorable combat situation.  Whenever possible, the Messerschmitts were employed as high cover, leaving the job of ground attack to the faster and more heavily armored FW 190s.  But Mietusch's aircraft proved vulnerable even as pure fighters.  Morale in the Gruppe began to drop.

The two Focke Wulf Gruppen were in better shape.  Most of their Staffeln contained at least two experienced officers, and the pilots had a high degree of confidence in their aircraft.  Many surviving German pilots claim today that the FW 190A could outrun any Allied fighter on the deck, regardless of the official performance figures.  The fighter's superb rate of roll gave it a useful maneuver for both attack and escape.  And the weight and dispersion of fire of its wing-mounted cannon gave even the most inexperienced pilot a chance to knock down enemy aircraft.  The claim-to-loss ratio of both the First andd Second Gruppen remained well over two to one throughout the summer; this was a far better performance than that of the Jagdwaffe as a whole.


- oldman

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #123 on: January 25, 2007, 09:07:51 PM »
dang oldman, all this learning and i might have just bothered finishing the education scheme the chaps in charge seemed so keen on.

why couldnt they have let me learn this sort of stuff for 18 years i mighta stuck it. eh?
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Offline humble

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« Reply #124 on: January 25, 2007, 10:06:45 PM »
Actually the 109's rate of accidents in operational units was exceptionally high. Accidents, both operational and training were and are simply a reality. All aircraft suffer from both. I have no interest in continuing this type of exchange. I could document well over 1000 109 operational accidents with ease. doing so add's nothing.

This is your statement above....

Documented by whom? Surely not by anyone who's actually flown the plane.

I simply posted a few comments specific to the elements in this thread that clearly document the inherent difficulties involved in successfully flying the 109. Including comments from an ace with 174 kills who crashed a 109 twice on takeoff within a single week. Again I can easily document over 50 "expertain" who suffered takeoff/landing accidents severe enough to require hospitalization.

This is a comment from a current warbird pilot qualified in the 109 (among many others) that was part of a thread discussing the the crash of "red 7" (typical landing mishap)...

"

While the Bf109 has poor directional stability characteristics on take-off and landing, a pilot who is experienced on the Spitfire or similar is quite capable of flying a Bf109. Like any aircraft, the 109 needs to be understood in order to fly it safely. The biggest aspect of this understanding is whether a given runway and the wind are suitable or not. Strong crosswinds, tailwinds, wheeled landings, high speed taxy tests are all guaranteed to cause problems. One of the problems is that, as with any other unstable response, the 109 on take-off and landing is "cliff-edged". If you fly from long, wide, flat grass strips with no tailwind and less than 10 kts of crosswind, it is no worse than most other warbird fighters. But, confidence grows and may lead a pilot to try short, concrete runways in a crosswind and suddenly it all goes wrong! The 109 is not a straightforward aircraft on take-off and landing but there are warbird pilots who do have the capabilities to fly it safely. Therefore, we should "keep 'em flying".


This is a quote regarding the 109 that mirrors my thoughts to a strong degree from another seasoned member of the warbird community...

"No more flawed than the Spitfire, being the same basic configuration. The aircraft had reached the end of it's development life in it's current configuration by mid-1943 with the G-6/AS and G-14/AS; note that the K retained the same exact configuration, with only minor internal equipment arrangement differences (and of course more horsepower). To put it in parallel with the Spitfire, the Mark IX would probably be a close equal in terms of development; note that the Mk XIV retained only the basic fuselage and horizontal stabilizer form from the earlier Spit models, with a completely different engine, wing, and vertical stabilizer designed to cope with the gobs of torque produced by that massive Griffon.

The 109 was the finest fighter in the world through early 1943, with the development peaking with the G-2... only the Mark 21 Zero would have a legitimate claim for equal greatness in the same time period. Every 109 model afterwards was a reactive development rather than proactive, including the /AS models. The basic G-6 was a step backwards in many ways, sacrificing manouverability and performance for firepower, and the K-4, while a very capable aircraft, still lacked a number of features which were considered standard on Allied combat aircraft at that time, including cockpit adjustable aileron and rudder trim, gyro-stabilized gunsights, and much more reliable all-weather capability. Credit the Allied bombing campaign for creating such a pressure-cooker environment that Messerschmitt and it's various satellite factories were forbidden to explore any significant developments as it might interfere with production of the current models.

The 190 was a fine aircraft as well, but the BMW 801 crapped out above 18,000 feet or so... lots of work took place to try and rectify this through the war, but it wasn't until the lashed-up D-9 entered service that the 190 got any kind of decent high-altitude performance."


Here is a summary of the accident in question....

Albstadt
According to police statement the accident happened at 2.45pm as follows:
After a 15min. practice flight of the experienced 69 year old pilot with the legendary Messerschmidt Me 109 from "Luftsportverein
Degerfeld", the plane banked during the landing, tuched the runway with one gear, tipped to the other gear and touched with the wing
on that side the unsecured ground of the runway.

Thereupon the plane tipped to the front and the propeller went into the ground. A complete rollover did not happen. The engine was
almost pulled out of the fuselage.

Mr. Manfred Birk, the chairman of the areo club is close to tears, some of his colleages are nearly speechless: "It was blessing in disguise;
the most important is that the pilot is unhurt!". Accoring to Birk, the pilot is an old stager, extremely experienced and worldwide
one of the most accepted specialists for this old german fighter plane.



The MTs had a lot of takeoff and landing incidents. During takeoff the Messerschmitt tended to yaw because of the propeller torque. MT-483 flown by ensign E. Marttinen flipped over during takeoff on the 23rd of Feb 1953.

"With the slotted flaps lowered to 20 degree, the take-off run was remarkably short and, the mainwheels being positioned well forward of the center of gravity, fierce braking was permitted inmediately on touchdown, resulting in a short landing run and fast taxiing. However, the tendency to swing on take off and landing, that had first manifested itself during tests with the early prototypes, continued to plague the Bf 109 E and contributed substantially to the Luftwaffe's high accident rate, some 1500 Bf 109 fighters being lost between the beginning of the war and the autumn of 1941 in accidents caused by unintentional swings. Only after the tailwheel had been fitted with a locking device which operated when the throttle was fully opened did the tendency to swing lessen."

"During the spring and summer of 1942 the assembly lines began to switch to the production of the Bf 109 G, deliveries of which commenced in the late summer of 1942 and which was appearing on all war fronts by the end of that year. With the phasing out of the Bf 109 F-series , the basic Bf 109 design might be considered to have passed the peak of its development, for with the introduction of the Bf 109 G-series the constant opertional demands for increased fire pwer and additional equipment brought with them a serious deterioration in the fighter's flying characteristics. The Bf 109 G could not be flown in a landing circuit with flaps and undercarriage down other than at full throttle, and experienced German operational pilots have described its landing charactreistics as malicious. Nevertheless, some 70 per cent of all the Bf 109 fighters produced during the war years were of the Bf 109 G-series."


Again all you need to do is look with an open mind and some objectivity....
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 10:09:17 PM by humble »

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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #125 on: January 25, 2007, 10:29:45 PM »
I see little objectivity.

For the most part I don't care one way or the other, but I like a good argument and I'm not seeing one here.


You can cite off "thousands" of crash reports. Okay. How many 109s were produced? Total. From the A-0 to the K-6? What time frame are your crash reports from? What UNIT are they from? After '43 pilots with no advanced fighter flight time were being pushed into extremely high performance planes with little to no training.

Look at the crashes for early 190s. They were very common. Oh, but wait, the 190 has a very wide track landing gear, is the most stable thing to taxi, and doesn't possess any of the problems the 109 does in landing. Yet, a very high crash rate (probably more lost to crashes than to enemy action).

Look at the F4u. It's widely known it earned the name "ensign eliminator" -- because you could kill yourself at the drop of a hat on landing or takeoff. The plane is a menace to anybody standing near it as it takes off past them.

Look at any front-line fighter in WW2 and you'll get the same crash percentage. It was the price of the war. Hell we get a Blackhawk crash in Iraq every week. I don't mean to be callous, but sometimes a plane just crashes, and crashes often.

Even more modern aircraft are not immune. Look at the F-8 Crusader. The thing yawed so horribly on takeoff it was uncontrollable after it left the catapult. They lost a few before sending them back to the drawing board to fix 'em. They had to bolt 2x 5-foot-fins to the bottom of it to prevent this from happening.

So you're saying the 109 was a deathtrap when landing and taking off. Pull up the production number for 109s. They were active since the Spanish Civil War, so count those too (no doubt the crash reports include those as well). Break the % down by year, as well, because after 41 the majority of pilots were green, and after 43 the majority were totally useless (often a flight of 4 would have 3 trainee-students in combat circling above the leader, who would engage an enemy target). Now compare that to Japanese crash rates. They had a similar lack of pilot skill (forcing non-pilots into planes) after '43.

Your argument doesn't fly. You've only shown that it crashed. You haven't show how much, or how badly, compared to any other plane out there.

Also, the focus of the argument has changed quite a bit. Nit-picking about the crashes is not what got us into this topic.

EDIT: Let me clarify my last comment. This is the same argument from those other threads, about how the 109 was an inferior aircraft. This crash % is just the latest part of the same old argument.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 10:33:31 PM by Krusty »

Offline Viking

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« Reply #126 on: January 26, 2007, 09:49:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
"No more flawed than the Spitfire..."


My point exactly. Thank you for confirming it.


Krusty, when someone hangs on to his bias so religiously as Humble no amount of rational reasoning is going to change his mind. This argument is at least 3 years in the making. From "Romanian Henshells" to the origin of the P51; from praising the P47 and P38 for their "seamless transition" to ground attack to dismissing the Fw 190F as some half hearted attempt at ground support as evidence of US superiority in ground support ideology. Humble has been proven wrong at every turn for (at least) the last three years by people far better versed in these matters than me. Yet he persists.

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #127 on: January 26, 2007, 11:44:09 AM »
i really dont get it.

as far as i can see humble is only trying to state one thing in the long run.


that the 109 was very unforgiving for rookie pilots and very taxing even for the best pilots during takeoffs and landings.


the fact that the two of you have gone off on a tangent and covered some serious ammounts of other unrelated 109 info, and therein have found many points to disagree on, does not make Humble's original vocation in this thread anything more than the above statement. A statement which is one of obvious background and sources, and hardly what i would consider a biased view, it is simply one that has no relation to your own thinking.


the fact that character assasinations had to be thrown into the mix of multiple posts in the thread seriously, and sadly, detracts from the envigorating educational experience others may be getting from the last few pages.

S!
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Offline Panzzer

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« Reply #128 on: January 26, 2007, 01:32:38 PM »
Does it matter if anyone finds the 109 a better ride than the Spit/Pony/190/etc. What I've read, most pilots have been confident enough in their rides to take off and fly another sortie against the unknown enemy.

What we play in here is a pale comparision (sp?) to what the real pilots did 60+ years back.

to all us cartoonists, and a more heartfelt Salute to all the pilots whom faced death on every sortie. I've met some of the Finnish aces, a couple of German ones (including G. Rall!), and even a pilot of the Soviet Bomber regiments. All have been well-behaved gentlemen, who make us cartoon-pilots look like childish, simple folk quarrelling with each other.

I agree with Bat, have had some good stories in this one. Thanks. :)

edited for vocabulary...
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Offline Virage

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« Reply #129 on: January 26, 2007, 01:46:38 PM »
I am reading a great book titled "Graphic War" by Donald Nijboer and came across this :

" At the start of WWII, 306 Spitfires had been delivered to the RAF.  187 aircraft were in squadron service, 71 were held at maintenance units, 11 served as test machines, one was used for the writing of the Pilot's Notes, and 36 aircraft struck off charge due to flying accidents."

11.7% of total aircraft delivered crashed.  Take out the aircraft held out of service and the percentage goes up.

How does this figure stack up against the 109 and other aircraft of the era?

The book is terrific and I highly recommend you check your local library.  It is full of original drawings and illustrations from technical manuals and cutaways of some of the major aircraft of the war.
JG11

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Offline humble

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« Reply #130 on: January 26, 2007, 02:43:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
My point exactly. Thank you for confirming it.


Krusty, when someone hangs on to his bias so religiously as Humble no amount of rational reasoning is going to change his mind. This argument is at least 3 years in the making. From "Romanian Henshells" to the origin of the P51; from praising the P47 and P38 for their "seamless transition" to ground attack to dismissing the Fw 190F as some half hearted attempt at ground support as evidence of US superiority in ground support ideology. Humble has been proven wrong at every turn for (at least) the last three years by people far better versed in these matters than me. Yet he persists.



The only bias here is yours, I dont have the interest or stamina to fight your blissful ignorance on such a trvial topic. So I will simply let the facts speak instead.

The 109 was, is and will continue to be one of if not the most difficult piston engine planes in the world to fly. That is a simple statement of fact. Once again I've given you an even unbiased overview and seen you seek to grasp a single out of context sentence fragment while ignoring everything else.

You asked for documentation specifically from folks who have flown the plane. I gave you 1st person testimonials from a variety of sources including one of the leading 109 expertain who crashed his 109 on takeoff TWICE  in one week.

I further documented that one of the most accomplished warbird pilots of our era died do to pilot error trying to land a 109. That 109 takeoff and landing accidents are common even today with exceptionally experienced pilots. That the issues are so significant that there is actual arguement within the warbird community about wether 109s should be limited to static display.


As for youur "quote"....

The aircraft had reached the end of it's development life in it's current configuration by mid-1943 with the G-6/AS and G-14/AS;


I'll add a couple...

One of the problems is that, as with any other unstable response, the 109 on take-off and landing is "cliff-edged"

The 109 is not a straightforward aircraft on take-off and landing but there are warbird pilots who do have the capabilities to fly it safely


However, the tendency to swing on take off and landing, that had first manifested itself during tests with the early prototypes, continued to plague the Bf 109 E and contributed substantially to the Luftwaffe's high accident rate, some 1500 Bf 109 fighters being lost between the beginning of the war and the autumn of 1941 in accidents caused by unintentional swings.

the MTs had a lot of takeoff and landing incidents. During takeoff the Messerschmitt tended to yaw because of the propeller torque. MT-483 flown by ensign E. Marttinen flipped over during takeoff on the 23rd of Feb 1953.

On April 4th, during a cross-wind take-off on the concrete runway, the 109 swung so much to the left that I feared it would crashinto some other machines parked along the edge of the field. I closed the throttle and my first crash began. The machine swung left even more, the left undercarriage leg broke, and the 109 dropped on its left wing. This happened to me twice - the second time on April 10th - and my future as a fighter pilot seemed sealed


The Bf 109 G could not be flown in a landing circuit with flaps and undercarriage down other than at full throttle, and experienced German operational pilots have described its landing charactreistics as malicious

All front line WW2 combat planes were difficult to fly. The overall mortality rate in training was high and all combat units suffered significant attrition due to non combat causes. While other planes like the F4U also had significant takeoff/landing issues none came close to matching the 109 which was plagued by initial design flaws that were later compounded by significant increases in both weight & torque with no modifications of the airframe. This resulted in an airplane with a small takeoff/landing flight envelope with minimal warning signs and almost no recovery capability.

I'll end my contribution to this topic with the following.......

After a 15min. practice flight of the experienced 69 year old pilot with the legendary Messerschmidt Me 109 from "Luftsportverein Degerfeld", the plane banked during the landing, tuched the runway with one gear, tipped to the other gear and touched with the wing on that side the unsecured ground of the runway.

This is your simple reality, do with it what you will. Even the most exprienced
109 pilot in the world today cant take the plane up for a simple practice/check ride on his home field without risk. The plane is simply that difficult to fly.....

These same comments appear everywhere anyone is discussing flying the plane. It is simply exceptionally unforgiving of even the slightest lapse of judgement or miscalculation.

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Offline 2bighorn

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« Reply #131 on: January 26, 2007, 04:31:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
The 109 was, is and will continue to be one of if not the most difficult piston engine planes in the world to fly. That is a simple statement of fact. Once again I've given you an even unbiased overview and seen you seek to grasp a single out of context sentence fragment while ignoring everything else.
With all due respect Humble, but you're being biased as much as Viking. To be honest, both, his and your arguments are weak, and both are giving selected information to support either claims.

It is really ridiculous to rehash some of the old arguments of allied vs axis especially when it comes to 109. It has been done on this forum and countless others million times.

I really don't see need to bash a decent design just because it was German.
Even with all the Nazi leadership bias toward certain designers, 109 wouldn't be produced in such numbers if it would be so bad as you're claiming it to be nor the production would continue after the WWII.

109 was relatively easy to fly and had forgiving stall. Lack of rudder trim was annoying and corrections on rudder pedals was in constant need, but since it was short range interceptor it didn't matter as much. Stick forces at higher speeds were rather heavy. Cockpit was tight due to small airframe. Visibility was rather acceptable then good. Majority of those who flew the 109s said it was rather easy to fly and that it was excellent fighter.

Directional stability on the ground was poor amplified by poor forward visibility. From all what I read about, it had slightly more difficult ground handling than Spitfires and such, mainly due to large toe-in and aircraft were lost during landing and take-offs.

That said, contrary to popular belief and according to Luftwaffe archives, only about 1 percent were lost in this kind of incidents. Lets double this number and it's still far bellow numbers popped out in this thread.
It was difficult on ground but it wasn't a killer like you wanna make it to be.

Never have I seen a word about more than unusually difficult ground handling for that kind of landing gear configuration in allied test reports of captured 109s.

Messerschmidt engineers never bothered to significantly redesign the landing gear since landing and take-off losses were statistically comparable to other single engine fighters of that time.
The only changes to landing gear was strengthening the struts and wheel enlargement due to weight increase in later models.

Offline humble

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2bighorn.......
« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2007, 07:41:28 PM »
go back and look at the original comments....

However they do propagate a number of myths and errors about many planes (typical Discovery), among them the 109's "one-third destroyed in landing accidents" myth. The actual number is about 5%, which is typical for WWII fighters. It was a difficult plane to handle on the ground, but not that difficult.


This is simply not a correct statement, neither is your 1%. Actual pilot records support the reality that the luftwaffe lost more pilots to operational accidents then combat. Obviously this goes far beyond takeoff landing accidents and included scenarios like Molders loss. I'm sure it also reflects crew loss not just single seat fighter loss.

the "1/3" figure pops up repeatedly in multiple histories of the luftwaffe. I certainly am not in a position to completely document it but if you look at the actual histories where available (JG26 etc) you can see tremendous non combat losses and significant resulting attrition in combat readiness. If you look at one of the quotes I posted it states 1500 non combat losses in the 1st 2 years of the war alone. I've seen that number repeatedly as well. does it mean these are the accurate numbers....of course not. But they are numbers that are consistant over a number of sources. Combine that with 1st  hand accounts that repeatedly discuss these crashes and its clear its an ongoing issue. Add the current 109 warbird history and you have a clear and overwhelming picture of a plane with significant issues in this area.

My comments are all specific to its vices on takeoff and landing. I am not a pilot (I do have 26 hours in a 172 and 31.5 in a 152) but never did get my license. I also however have 2.5 hours on unusual attitude training in a T-28 which is a high performance plane. The truth is that they are all "easy to fly" within the meat of the flight envelope. I was amazed at how easy the T-28 is to fly....what I wasnt prepared for was the physical demands and strain. the reality of a 3G turn and trying to find the horizon as the PIC Barrel rolls it and then hangs it semi inverted at a 70 degree AOA at 145 knots and then says your plane is tough to describe. IRL pilot strength and ability to absorb the physical punishment had to be a big factor....my neck was sore for a week from the strain of what i'm sure were mild manuevers. I have only 2 takeoff/landings and obviously was just along for the ride under 4000 ft. But the takoff landing profile of the T-28 was markedly different from my limited experience in the Cessna's....at the same time I was thinking gee I could do this:).


What was interesting was his (the instructors) comments that he would have guessed I had about 1200 hours in a complex single from how coordinated my turns etc were. Also my ability to unload and recover from the edge of a stall ( I only failed on the 1st recovery, I was to busy avoiding throwing up:)). I was suprised how much easier it was then any sim since the plane clearly telegraphed its intent...you can literally feel the change in the seat of your pants.


As for the 109, if you've got sources that support the 1-2% number pull em up. I'm certainly open to being corrected. but just the 1500 109E's is 5% of total production....

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Offline Viking

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« Reply #133 on: January 26, 2007, 09:09:42 PM »
A good site for those that want to learn more about the 109:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths

The Finns really got a great community centered around their surviving WWII pilots and their favorite warbird.

Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2007, 09:44:55 PM »
Ah, never mind.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 09:48:31 PM by Benny Moore »