Author Topic: Real life wingman tactics vs AH  (Read 572 times)

Offline Black Jack

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 158
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« on: January 20, 2007, 08:49:08 AM »
I've been reading a bit on wingman tactics. This principle of following your wing leader is good to protect him from getting lined up by another airplane that he could of missed. But let's say in a 2vs2 engagement, If you do stay with your wingleader the second plane will line YOU up and then it's only defensive maneuvering. Would it be better to engage in 1vs1 and then if your side is the first winner then you are 2vs1 in your favor. I can't understand why the wingman would stay with the wingleader even if he's being lined up by an eny plane. What were they really doing and then how does it or doesn't apply to AH. Thanks

Black70

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2007, 10:05:22 AM »
Hey Black, how goes your flying?  

Regarding your specific question, I don't know at what point WWII tactical doctrine allowed the wingman the freedom to maneuver on his own but  just the CYA dictum would eventually force them out of their welded wing formation.  The question would be "what then"?

Now days a true 2v2 (or 2v3, 2v4) would evolve quite a bit differently as it's based on entering a fight in a very aggressive manner from a wide combat spread formation, many times with a significant altitude split.  With modern fighters the spead formation can be up a mile to mile and a half apart.  This reflects relative turn radius, the high speeds and the SA provided by modern radar and of course, missiles.  A jet can be a mile away and still be able to shoot a bandit off your six in a few seconds.  In AH, I'd say a good spread formation would probably be much closer to 1k or less.

Until the merge, and all things being equal, the flight lead's going to maneuver the section into the fight unless his wingman has better Situational Awareness, then the wing would become the tactical lead.  An example would be the wingman picks up the bandits at close range at his 9 o'clock and the lead doesn't see them.  

In the engagement the mindset is one of mutual support between two equals vice what sounds to me more like shooter/lookout or maybe more accurately shooter/bullet sponge relationship.  Of course we don't have guys flying wing nowdays with only 20 hours of flight time either.

Once engaged the concept of Lead and Wing don't mean much at all, it's a cooperative effort with a goal of 1) keeping sight of each other (and clearing your buddie's six), 2) keeping sight of both nme 3) remaining close enough to provide mutual support and 4) communicating and cooperating.  

Now to answer your specific question.  How and who you engage depends on the tactical situation.  Two aircraft flying welded wing a'la WWII tactics can be treated as one as long as they stay together.  In modern lingo by staying together they are said to be flying "in phase" and any maneuver(i.e., immelman, flat turn, reversal, etc.) you do against one works against both of them, essentially the fight is a 2v1.  For them they have a big problem because a defensive move on their part ONLY works against one of the fighters while usually giving an advantage to the other.  In this scenario what would happen is both fighters will maneuver out of phase with each other and use a concept of free fighter and engaged fighter.  The engaged fighter is pushing the bandits hard looking for a kill shot, the free fighter usually positions high or extends a bit to time his attack based on where the engaged fighter is pushing the bandits.  He then comes nose on-from a position of advantage and becomes the engaged fighter and both fighters exchange rolls.

Now lets say the bandits are operating using the same tactics as you are and arrive at the fight in a good offensive combat spread.  This starts out similar to two interlacing 1v1s but the difference here now becomes shots of opportunity on the other fighters bandit and the concept of switching.  Lets say you come out of your first turn neutral with your bandit but a very good position on the second, you'd call a switch and take the second and your wingman takes yours.  In an extended engagement these switches would occur frequently in a well coordinated fight.

Last case, assume the bandits are operating with very wide separation, maybe something like a long lead/trail formation where the wingman cannot engage immediately.  The fighters need to decide who is the high threat bandit and engage him first.  For instance, say the lead bandit is below you but the trail has several thousand feet of altitude advantage.  This would actually make the far bandit a greater threat so the fighters might blow past the first bandit and engage the second.  Again the fighters will use free and engaged concepts but in this case the free fighter's primary responsibility is being ready to engage the low threat bandit when he approaches.  As you say, the goal would be to reduce a 2v2 to a 2v1 quickly.

In any of these cases if your bandit starts to bugout while your wingman is heavily engaged with the other then a decision needs to be made regarding following your bandit.  He could have had enough and is going home, he could be simply trying to break down the fight into two separate 1v1s or he could just be extending so he can re-enter the fight with a better tactical position, (this is called "redefining" a fight).  If you're only a few seconds from killing him and your wingman is offensive with his bandit then do it.  If not you need to stay with your wingman while keeping sight of the departing bandit and watching for him, or another to enter the fight.  This is where I see mutual support breaking down most often in AH.  A running bandit almost always gathers a crowd of fighters which then will often leave some poor guy to get his butt shot off.

Mace
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 10:14:18 AM by Mace2004 »
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2007, 10:44:03 AM »
Hi black jack.  I posted an article in response to other wingman articles on another site years ago, that addresses some scenerios when it might be advantagous to break from welded wing.  As well as some strategies on how to approach ones wingman role.

Murdr on winging

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2007, 12:14:21 PM »
Funny this thread came up at this time.  I've recently formed a small fighter squad called The Wingmen.  We are, or at least were, loners and the squad was formed to allow each of us us an occasional wingman.  I had been winging with other players on occasion with much success prior to forming the squad and was hoping to make that a more frequent occerance.

In addition to the tactical discussion above and to Murdr's linked article the primary responsibility of a wing, in my opinion, is dedicated support, communication and experience.

Your wing doesn't have to move in lock-step with you with every move you make.  We often break into seperate engagements re-grouping periodically.  Even in these situations, in a furball for instance, the extra set of eyes assesing the tactical situation is invaluable and having a dedicated wing to communicate with is highly desirable in both setting up an enemy and keeping each others sixes clear.

In a 2 on 1 this communication can keep an enemy turning from one wingman to the other while the wings are able to properly set up clean firing passes or drag and baits  and when one wingman is hit and has to rtb it's comforting to know that your six is covered as you disengage.

When our communication is at it's peak so are we.  When our communication breaks down so do we.

In our small squad we consider ourselves equals, therefor no one "leads" per say.  We are also roughly equivalent from a skill and experience perspective which is important in building trust.  It's nice to know that the guy who has your wing is at least as good as you are.

Finally, learning your wingman is essential for success.  You have to know his capabilities, tendancies and communication "style" which can come quickly or take time.  Once these things come together you are, in fact, in lock-step even though you may be seperated physically.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2007, 01:37:08 PM »
Sounds like you have the right idea Baldeagl, let me add a few suggestions you might consider.  Establish some baseline standards and expectations that everyone agrees to.  

For instance, it should be agreed that the section is your basic fighting unit and you should always launch together, fight together AND RTB/land together.  

This is called maintaining your section integrity and you should consider it to be absolutely vital to maintain it.  Set a goal to never become separated and, if you do, your immediate goal (assuming you're not being shot at) is to immediately attempt to regain your section integrity.  When one aircraft is bingo, both are bingo.  When one is damaged or out of ammo and has to RTB they both RTB.  

Another cardinal rule of section flight is that any kill by either fighter should be a kill by both.  I realize there's no way to do that within the AH scoring system but that's the way you should fight.

Regarding lead, I understand what you're saying about your squad having equivalent experience but ideally you should decide who the flight lead is before you launch.  This both clairifies decision making and assigns responsibilities.  As I said in my previous post, whoever has the best SA takes the taclead at that moment but the flight lead (also call military lead) should be responsible for coordinating everything else including other sections when you join up for division (or more) work.  Alternate the lead to give everyone the opportunity.

Last thing, I think it would be great if we saw more of this going on.  Not "hords" but coordinated section and division tactics.  While you may at first land less kills I think you'll find that eventually the total kills will mount well beyond the total that separate airplanes would achieve.  Some day it would be nice to see a division depart a field, fight together, and then come into the break over the field in formation with all four landing kills.

Best of luck.

Mace
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Black Jack

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 158
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2007, 02:02:15 PM »
Mace, my flying is going a lot better thanks to guys like you and the trainers. What you are talking about taking off, fighting and coming back as a section is exactly what our squad is trying to achieve. It takes some time before eveything comes to place but that's ok. Me and my wingman OPP7755 that you encountered a few times..*S* are trying to work on that.  Thanks for the comments, we'll reup and try some of that stuff. Thanks Murdr, I already read your wingman tactics and that was the first tactics we tried. Switching bogeys and stuff. It did bring some success but we're always working on learning more...Thanks

Offline Phil

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 273
SA a must ! RADIO Communication MUST BE SHARP !
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2007, 02:17:08 PM »
Gents !

Mace you are DEAD ON !!!!!


WINGMAN tactics are impressive and can be very intimidating.
Espescially seeing fighters closing in wingtips to wingtips and suddenly they break at the same time. Now u know your in for a good SCRAP !! Certain moves tells u that the guys ahead are communicating and they have a strategy linin' u up....

I fly with Black70. We are often together flying formation. As time goes by we are improving due to MISTAKES...(shot up by MACE2004)
But we noticed that our scraps are starting to be shortened because of GOOD RADIO COMMUNICATION. We call each other's shots. We line'em up and BANG ! The THREAT is shredded to pieces....
Having a good SA is always improved when your wingman is describing the enemy's flight pattern/action when he's on your 6...

Going back to WWII, can't imagine what is was like when your buddy was about be killed and trying not to scream / tryin to remain calm on the radio.
The gunners in bombers calling the bandits diving in.... Must of been horrifying !~

OPP7755
Phil
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 02:34:26 PM by Phil »

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 02:40:49 PM »
Mace, I agree and disagree to some extent.  

We usually try to take off together and land together but sometimes, if one is shot down, he'll just re-up to re-join.  I don't disagree with that unless as a group you get totally out of phase in your take-offs then it's time to re-group.

Regarding lead we take turns calling missions and aircraft and the person who calls becomes the defacto lead for that mission although that lead is open to revision given tactical situations.

As to fighting together let me recount an experience from last night.

One of my wingmen (EA3B) and I were flying in generally the same area but mostly doing our own thing for quite a while.  After getting killed one or two times too many we decided to go on a mission together.  I let EA3B call.

He wanted to take P-51D's to a Knight/Rook furball (we are Bish) with 75% fuel and drop tanks.  I'm immediately wondering how two lowly Bish are going to do better in a purely enemy furball than we've been doing with friendly support.  Regardless we take off.

We immediately engage an enemy coming into our field.  I get the kill and EA3B suggests we both top off (it's a good 2-3 sectors to our destination) but I felt the ammo was more important than the fuel.  We do and take back off.

I had taken a hit on our initial engagement and lost a gun.  I let my wingman know.  He asks if I want to continue and I, of course, say yes (one lost gun in a pony won't matter).

On the way there I suddenly hear my engine slow.  I had somehow hit WEP and forgot to turn it off.  I let EA know.  We both now know that I won't be able to rely on WEP when we engage.

As we approach I am in the lead by ~1.7K (that WEP mistake).  We dive in and get seperated while individually turning for targets.  As I climb out I don't see EA3B.  I pop open my clipboard and see him on the other side of the fight/field and immediately advise him that I'm climbing for lost E on the opposite side of the fight from him.  So is he, out of icon range but I can see his dot.

I ask if he's dropped tanks.  Yes, he has.  I let him know that I've still got mine.  Why?  We both now know that I will be slower and less manouverable than him for the duration of this flight and will have more fuel.

We climb and move back toward one another, advising as to high and low enemys around us, giving us a much larger tactical view of the battlefied than we could have achieved flying in close proximity.

We dive back in, this time from opposite directions, co-E.  As con's don't know which of us is the juicier target we both fly through and extend.

We circle out re-grouping and re-engage, this time with me 700 on his six.  We're both hoofing it after a low fast con (190 if I remember) who is dragging us deeper and deeper into the furball and the enemy base.  "We need to break now or we'll never get out of here" I say.  EA had been a little target fixated I guess but we both broke and extended away.

At this point he tells me he's low on ammo and we both break for home together even though I've still got over 50% of mine.

Finally we engaged a set of bombers on the way home taking two and land together with 4 kills each.

While we at times were'nt even in icon range, we were working together and communicating through the entire flight and two lowly Bish left a purely enemy furball feeling fat and happy.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2007, 03:05:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Black Jack
Mace, my flying is going a lot better thanks to guys like you and the trainers.
By the way, Mace is the newest addition to the training staff.  ;)

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2007, 04:36:06 PM »
Black and Phil, I suspected you guys would still be working together, that's great.  There are lots that just do the "lone wolf" routine but I think that sticking together you guys will both support and learn from each other.  I think I'll have to keep an eye out as you guys are advancing pretty quickly. Regarding how this appears from a bandit's perspective you're right.  The bandit and his gaggle looks ahead and sees four dots in tight fingertip formation.  Just inside of icon range the division splits into two sections.  At 4k the sections then open out into combat spread so you're bracketed with two coming from the right, and two coming from the left and all are at different altitudes....think you'd know these guys are working together and you're in deep trouble?

BaldEagl, I think we're actually in complete agreement.  There are many times when it makes no sense to sit in the tower waiting for your wingman to return and it makes more sense just to re-up, that's part of the "game" aspect of AH.  I liked your after action report, looks like your SA was high.  I'd say it's unrealistic to expect to get into a real large AH furball and keep at each other's side (it should get easier the more you do it) but you guys still worked through that and coordinated your actions.  I like in particular your coordinated multi-axis attack, when done properly with good timing it's something very hard to defend against.  Looks like you thought through everything first, made some excellent decisions, and worked together exceptionally well and that's what you're after.  You can also see the advantage of disengaging and RTBing together even with you having plenty of ammo, bet those bombers weren't happy.

Mace
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Bruv119

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15657
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2007, 01:00:41 AM »
SA a must ! RADIO Communication MUST BE SHARP !

This is wingman flying in a nutshell for me at first anyway.

Good wingmen who have flown together for a long time know exactly what the other is doing and going to do at all times.

It is a level of understanding between two pilots.  Very rarely in game do I come across another player on my team that will work with me.  (Pawz ~S~)

Myself and Kazaa are a great double act and I'm doing my best to improve the wingman skills of the rest of my squad.  For me there is nothing better than to rope someone and see my boys come in and see a big  explosion looking back on my HAT switch.

Easier kills.  Less ammo used and much less time spent on losing position.

Bruv
~S~
The Few ***
F.P.H

Offline Bruv119

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15657
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Real life wingman tactics vs AH
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2007, 01:08:50 AM »
A game I used to play used to have squad events every week where we would go  8 Vs 8 (sometimes more)  20 mins from the off.  1 base each.  Grab as hard as we could  straight into a big merge and Have it.  Most kills won the match up.  Winners stay on for the next opponents.

Having the privelege to have flown with the best in this event (we won every week) to a point where squads just didnt show up anymore because we had our wingman skills, well rehearsed and elite.  The others were indivaduals competing we were at one with each other.

Would love AH to have a similar setup.
The Few ***
F.P.H