D-Day Gliders

[Denholm]

Originally posted by VooWho
Up at 15k in your C47 with two other guys towing gliders and down low at 3k you have like 5 guys with C47s and no gliders and the guys at 15k release their gliders and the gliders fly on a different course then come from behind, land near the town, as the other 8 C47s get owned, and gliders land and drop there troops, because they didn't show up on radar and the base becomes yours.

I highly doubt that would work in an MA arena with a terrain such as ndisles. MA folks know that if there is an attempt to capture a base you need to watch the map room(s) for any moving creatures. Plus with the ID tags still working, I don't think a glider would get far not being seen by radar.

[DREDger]

I think this is a fantastic idea.  I posted a thread on this last month, but didn't get much suport.

People seemed to fixated on how it would make C-47's more slow and that was a bad thing.  I felt that if the pilot was ok with that, then so be it no big deal.

My idea was when someone 'joined' the C-47 pilot, they would then be in the seat of the glider and could release and fly down, land glider and let troops out.

Would take a good deal of effort to program this, so I've been saving up for that expensive bottle of scotch to send to HTC with my request.

Cheers

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by VooWho
It still has metal parts (the engines) and some other stuff. I'm just saying the glider wouldn't just show up on the radar, but the Mossy would.

Gliders have a lot of metal in them as well...... support structures, the landing gear, control wires, fasteners......heck the weapons inside the plane carried by the troops.

They might not have quite as strong a radar signature compared to similarly sized plane, but still easily detectable by radar.

Besides, in-game, we'd see the dot miles out, and the red icon at 6K (since you can't fly a glider on the deck like a goon).  Survivability chances = 0%.


Want to experiment, try the suggestion of lifting a light goon, 25% fuel, then glide into your target.... see how well you do.

[Denholm]

Originally posted by tedrbr
Want to experiment, try the suggestion of lifting a light goon, 25% fuel, then glide into your target.... see how well you do.

Being from a not so active gaming section, it's still a terrible tradgedy when you attempt to glide.

[ForrestS]

If u take them up to 30,000 and if your a good pilot u should be able to detach from the C47 a pretty good distance away and still make it. They should make it where the gliders tags dont show up. That would be cool.  
Thats the only thing we don't have in AH is gliders.


Wingspan 11.0 m (36 ft)
Length 6.4 m (21 ft)
Height 3.0 m (10 ft)
Weight Empty, 101 kg (225 lb)
The airspeed could not exceed a maximum of 105 kph (65 mph).
 
A pilot could expect the machine to take off and touch down at 32 kph (20 mph) and to glide 4.2 m (14 ft) horizontally for every 0.3 m (1 ft) of altitude loss.

[DREDger]

Remember forrests, unless you have oxygen you will start getting hypoxia at higher elevations.

I think FAA requires oxgen above 12.5k for a percentage of hour at that elevation, and full time above 15k or something (been a while since I studied that regulation)

In WW2 I dont think those gliders were ever towed above 10k, but I'm just guessing.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by ForrestS
Thats the only thing we don't have in AH is gliders.

We don't have seaplanes either and I'd rather see those first (PBY Catalina).

[Sabre]

The only reason to add gliders to this game (accept for scenario purposes, but they were not generally -- if ever -- risked where an air2air threat was remotely likely) is if they can perform a task that the C-47 can't. So, what unique uses could they be used for?  In addition to carrying troops, they could carry cargo, jeeps, artillery pieces, and (occasionally) light armored vehicles.  They also had the attribute of costing a fraction of what a C-47 did, and could be piloted by minimally trained soldiers (a dozen hours of flight time versus hundreds for a powered a/c pilot).  Remember also that C-47's were worth their weight in gold, according to Eisenhower and Kenny, who both felt the Skytrain was the most important air asset to their repective theaters.  So, where does that leave us?  Here's what I suggest...

1) Perk the C-47, such that it becomes the high-value asset it really was.  Not real high, maybe 10 or so points, so that they're still relatively affordable...just not so expendable.  They would still be capable of all the current payloads.

2) Add gliders (zero perk cost).  With a glide ratio of 14:1, as suggested by Forrest's data, taking one up to 10K before releasing it would give it a maximum gliding range of 26.5 miles; that's better than one sector, and enough to keep the C-47 out of the most hazardus airspace around the target.  It would be capable of all the same tasks as a C-47, but could also carry:

3a) 2 Jeeps or 1 halftrack (with any currently available options);
3b) 1 Jeep with a towed howetzer;
3c) 1 M-8, with glide ratio cut in half (i.e. 7:1).

With these additions, the glider has a unique purpose, with built in incentive to choose it over a Goon.  Plus, it would open up interesting capture dynamics, where spawn camping the GV spawn points is no longer a sure-fire way to prevent a ground assault.

[Rino]

Originally posted by VooWho
It still has metal parts (the engines) and some other stuff. I'm just saying the glider wouldn't just show up on the radar, but the Mossy would.

     Radar is not a metal detector, it bounces microwaves off objects.  The
slab sided gliders would give a pretty fair return.

[Sabre]

Rino is correct, as far as he goes.  However, since I believe the gliders had fabric skins, they would in fact reflect almost nothing.  However, the frame and all the stuff under that fabric would potentially provide a fairly sizable radar return.  All objects have an electromagetic reflectivity (call it r) and, its inverse, electromagnetic transmissivity (call this t).  Metal has an r = ~1.0 and a t = ~ 0.0, meaning all energy is reflected and none transmitted through the metal.  Even wood has an r > 0, but with the radars of WWII the range at which a usuable return comes back from wood is much less than for metal object of the same shape.  However, any metal objects inside the glider will act as reflector, and can give a return even worse than if the skin were metal; this is dependent on the shape and orientation (with respect to the radar's polarization) of the skin versus the scattering object.  That is not to say the Waco will have as large a return as a similarly sized metal-skinned a/c; rather it is possible that its return could still be significant.

Stealth a/c don't hide from radar by absorbing EM energy, or by allowing it to pass through it.  Rather, 80-85% of radar signature reduction is accomplished with the shape of the skin, which is designed to control the direction radar waves bounce off it.  The idea is to prevent a return from reflecting back to the radar station that it came from.  The skin is reflective on purpose, to hide all the metal frame, engines, wiring, and of course the pilot's ego (the most visible component ).  Radar absorbing materials (RAM) are only used to control second order scattering that can't be controlled by the basic airframe shape.

[DREDger]

Wow, Sabre really did a good job up there on his description, I'm sold.

So what he says, but with;

1.  10 troops as well (maybe that goes w/o saying)

2.  No perk on C-47...eeek, nobody would fly goons in my missions.

[Sabre]

Thanks, Dredger.  Yeah, number (2) states that glider could carry same payload options as C-47, in addition to 3a,b, and c.  Regarding perks, 10 may be too high (or not; hard to say without trying it), but I think some kind of nominal perk value would make their worth more in line with history.  Perhaps add a new perk catagory, called "Combat Support", so as not to burn buff or fighter perks.  The added capabilities might be enough to get the gliders used, but I think the nominal perk cost for Goons is still worth considering.

[DREDger]

Sabre your idea seems so well thought out(and what I want as well) I hate to disagree on the perk thing.  Perhaps some nominal amount as you say.  

I know they were valuable to the war effort, but I think the USA cranked those things out like nobodies business at the time.  I guess what I am getting at is, it doesn't seem a C-47 would be as difficult, industrially speaking, as creating at 262 or any other perked planes; presumably requiring more expensive parts and being labor intensive (just my gut, can't back up with facts)

One more thing about your plan

-The C-47 would get to tow two(2) gliders right?

Now we just need to throw in together on that bottle of scotch for HTC.

[Sabre]

Two gliders seems good to me.  Once it lands, the pilot could roll out the GV, if that's what he/she was carrying.  Count me in for half the cost of that bottle, my friend.  Regarding perks, as I said, the unique abilities of gliders I've suggested may be enough to dispense with perking the C-47.  I guess it's something that would have to be tried to know for sure.

From a historical perspective, the shortage of transport a/c was not a function of their difficulty to produce.  Instead, it had to do with the fact that they were in such high demand, coupled with competition with the fighter and bomber mafias for available industrial capacity and strategic resources.  There simply were never enough to satisfy all the theaters, and they were so useful to everyone.  While they were built in relatively high numbers, their high operational and strategic value made them assets that commanders didn't knowngly risk if you could avoid it.  The D-Day invasion was one such instance, but even then the air-to-air threat was minimal and the drops were made in the pre-dawn darkness.

As far as perk planes and vehicle in AH, my understanding of why they're perked is because of their impact on gameplay (due to their performance), rather than how rare they were.  In any case, I'd be happy either way, so peace.

[PhatHat]

I've taken a couple of bases, by landing a C47 near the town. Once under fire. After I landed, The Mustang that was dogging me went after something else. A glider could be used this way. It would be a tough, so it should award high perks.