Lets look at the components of a loop. First half of a loop is an immelman (commonly ending with a roll to uninvert). Second half of a loop is effectively a split-s (commonly begining with a roll to invert).
So if you look at it that way, there are two maneuvers taking place with a loop. A full loop is not an immelman, though it begins with an immelman.
If I understand you correctly, what you are talking about is a sustained loop fight where both are circling in the same direction.
As with a sustained flat turn fight with the same situation, there is no easy way to answer this. All depends on relative positions on the circles. There are many strategies for gaining the advantage, but the positions within the circle, and the timing have to be right for them to work.
Here is one exampleIf you are on their side of the circle, you could angle off the bottom half of your loop. This will lessen your speed gain on the down stroke, and give you a tighter turn radius,
if you are still at a speed that could produce blackout G's while traveling through the bottom of the loop. This also can also slightly offset your respective radius points.
This (radius points) can be important because if neither plane model will out turn the other, and your radius points are pretty much the same, you could have the same
pursuit mode indefinately.
Which sounds like what you are describing. If your respective radius points are different. You will watch your pursuit angle vary as you progress through different parts of the circle. Now, if you have the advantage, you don't have to pull harder to get a lead. At one part of the circle, you'll find yourself transitioning from lag or pure pursuit to lead pursuit.
That's one very specific example, so like ghosth and I said, it's not easy to answer because what helps in one specific situation may hurt in another situation.
Just happened to remember having another related example:
Originally posted by Murdr
Zellak wrote on 08-22-2006 01:58 AM:
Murdr,
This is going to sound really confusing, but here goes!
Now I understand the rolling scissors (hold before you go not this again hehe). Saying that I sometimes find myself in a loop to loop trying to gain the advantage (it actually just kind of happens sometimes) and I end up trying to pull down to the enemies rear when I'm at the top of the loop. Usually I'm trying to cut the corner a bit so im pulling down and diagnol to get behind him. I guess that would mean that he is closer to my tail then I am to his. Any way what is the goal here, and how do I turn this into a rolling scissors or back to something I understand (or is this a good situation to be in, i fly the ko-84). I know you know your stuff from watching your videos.. I surely hope that you understand this!
I do understand the situation you're talking about. Before I say what I try to do with that situation, I need to back up and lay some ground work for it.
Often times in a dogfight, you are either conciously, or unconciously trying to predict where the arc of the other guys turn will take them a few seconds ahead of time. One of the easiest 'best turn arc' to predict is comming down out of the vertical. By that I mean predicting either a stall 'over the top' to recovering level flight, or converting from a vertical dive to level flight. Either way, the bottom apex of the turn is going to be the altitude that the other plane will achieve level flight.
So any time I am fighting in the vertical, and I am either lower to begin with, or happen to be starting the upsweep of my loop while the other guy is in his downsweep, I am trying to judge what altitude they can recover level flight in relation to me. The reason is that anywhere above that arc is a safe zone from their guns.
I made these visual aids for defending rope situations, but the basic premiss is true in any vertical fight.
In this picture I just made it inside the 'safe zone'. Where our trails intercect, I was just above his arc as he passed behind me. His dive speed carried him on by as my own speed neared stall. Hence what we are talking about is an overshoot maneuver.
The same idea can be employed in a looping fight. If the opponent has the advantage in angles, and trys to push the issue, and 'cut the corner' as you put it, to get a shot comming through the bottom part of the loop. What you can do is forget maneuvering your nose to them for a moment, and concentrate on maneuvering to, and hanging out in the 'safe zone' until they are crossing under you. What you are doing is initating a vertical scissors. Since you are going up, and they are going down, they will have more speed, and overshoot underneath you. All you have to do is reverse to shoot them on their upsweep.
Even though I employ this often in loop fights, I can't think of a film off hand with a slow speed fight (would probably have to comb through films to find it). Here is a film with 2 bnz examples though. evarev3a I don't know if you can easlily picture this in a slow speed loop fight, but as I mentioned, I am always looking to create the positioning for this any time I am lower that the other guy. If you look at chknoris I still have this concept in my decisions on the fly. I get the P51 to overshoot, take a half hearted shot at it. Then I manuever under the spit16 just inside his downward arc believing the bottom apex of his turn will be in the trees if not below ground level.
Anyway, give it a try. If you see a 'safe zone' in a vertical fight, try to get there, and have them overshoot below you for a vertical scissors.
