Wingover

[Gianlupo]

Stupid question, here.

Is the wingover the hammerhead (or Fiesler) turn? If not, can you show me a picture of it and explain how to do it?.

Thanks.

[B@tfinkV]

"Everything you always wanted to know about aerial combat... and weren't afraid to ask for!"








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im not sure but i would geuss yes, its a hammerhead or very similar. might be that a hammerhead is done very slow on a stalling climb and a wingover is a move that van be done at any speed.

totaly no clue in reality though......


NEXT!

[Krusty]

No I always thought of a wingover as a roll.

As in, you're in a high angle spiral climb, and see, the poor sap behind you has gotten himself into a really bad position, you wing over (roll into the bank in this case) and attack.

Hammerheads don't really involve rolling if you do 'em right, so I can't see the wingover name fitting that move.

[Mace2004]

Hey Gianlupo, how you doing?

No, a wingover is not a hammerhead.  An aerobatic wingover is simply a climbing turn to 90deg followed by a descending turn for a total turn of 180degrees. Done correctly angle of bank starts at zero and smoothly increases to 90deg at the top and then decreases smoothly to zero on the way back down.  You'll come out heading in the opposite direction but offset from your initial flight path.  In a perfect world (i.e., no losses) you'll come out of the turn at exactly the same speed and alt as you started it.  It's called a wingover because of the angle of bank reaches 90deg when you're at the top of the turn and 90deg to your start heading.  In a fight, the advantage of the wingover is the use of the vertical to reduce your turn radius and increase turn rate.  There are, of course, many variations depending on how much angle of bank you use initially and at the top.  You can overbank (roll greater than 90deg) for instance.  

A hammerhead is a yawing maneuver.  You go pure vertical and as your airspeed decays use the rudder to yaw the nose of the airplane around while keeping your wings in the same plane as you started.  To do this you have to use lateral stick to keep the airplane from rolling due to torque and dihedral effect but it's not used to create turn rate.  A key component is often a blast of power at the top so that the propwash hits the rudder to assist in bringing the tail around.  A P-38 is a great plane to do a real hammerhead in since you can keep one engine at full power and the other at idle to power your way around 180degrees of yaw.

When fighting, you rarely see these two maneuvers done in the classic or true aerobatic sense, there's usually a combination of both which causes a bit of confusion when the wingover is near pure vertical.  If you really wanted to differentiate between the two in this case you'd look to see if you used roll and pitch in the reverse or pure yaw.

Mace

[Gianlupo]

Batfink! Indeed, my question is not about air combat, is about maneuvering (<--- little lawyer linguistic trick)

Don't know Krusty, from what I've seen around, looks like Batfink may be right... the matter is I saw a lot of times this term being used in the forum and elsewhere but I couldn't understand what kind of maneuver it is, exactly. I know there are RL pilots and former pilots who play this game, I was hoping for some of them to give me an answer.

But thanks to both of you, anyway.

[B@tfinkV]

oooo touche nice reversal sir


Mace already nailed it but i found this on google as the top result.




warbirds still has it uses


LINK

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Gianlupo
Stupid question, here.

Is the wingover the hammerhead (or Fiesler) turn? If not, can you show me a picture of it and explain how to do it?.

Thanks.

Wingover



Hammerhead



ack-ack

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Gianlupo
Don't know Krusty, from what I've seen around, looks like Batfink may be right... the matter is I saw a lot of times this term being used in the forum and elsewhere but I couldn't understand what kind of maneuver it is, exactly. I know there are RL pilots and former pilots who play this game, I was hoping for some of them to give me an answer.

Hiya Ginalupo.  A couple weeks ago I replied that in this genre the terms are often used interchangably (akak is making this point in the previous post).  As mace said aerobatically one involves a roll and pitch change, and the other does not.  Im usually a stickler on these thing, but in the context of using a hammerhead during ACM, the 'pilot' is more worried about exiting the turn oriented on the opponent rather than hitting the marks for aerobatic competition.  Hence what is performed isn't quite a pure hammerhead, but doesnt involve significant bank angle changes either.  (just noticed mace also said that in so many words too )

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by Murdr
Hiya Ginalupo.  A couple weeks ago I replied that in this genre the terms are often used interchangably (akak is making this point in the previous post).  As mace said aerobatically one involves a roll and pitch change, and the other does not.  Im usually a stickler on these thing, but in the context of using a hammerhead during ACM, the 'pilot' is more worried about exiting the turn oriented on the opponent rather than hitting the marks for aerobatic competition.  Hence what is performed isn't quite a pure hammerhead, but doesnt involve significant bank angle changes either.  (just noticed mace also said that in so many words too )

Yeah, I always tend to be a bit wordy in these things but Murdr hits it right on the head when he mentions that in combat, the point is to do whatever it is you need to do to get the nose pointed back down (while maintaining control of course).  Instead of a true "hammer head" I'll usually bring the stick back and left with a bootfull of left rudder (stick and rudder right for oddball airplanes like Typhoon), seems the quickest way for most airplanes.  Oh, in RL combat this would be called a "rudder reversal" vice  Hammer Head and, as Murdr points out, we're not going for style points.

Mace

[Mugzeee]

Given a vertical advantage i almost always use a wingover as opposed to a hammer.

The wingover can tend to keep the bandit on the string longer and the E retention is well worth the effort in the end. Especially in a crowded environment.

When i think of it, it's kinda like a spiral climb at first.

I will come in with tons of E. Then i will actually will show 6 and start the spiral climb so that the bandit closes on me due to angle rather than speed. It many times fools them into thinking they have more E than i do. Or sometimes they think i have burned all me E.

Then you start stretching them more in the vertical because thay are far too commited to back out at this time.

If all goes well, your wingover reverses at just the right time and you have E to spare in case a second bandit attacks.

Or if you have to exit due to low ammo because you suck at gunnery.

I fall into the latter rather than the former.

Hope that made sense.

[Gianlupo]

Thank you all for the help. Now it's all clear.

Batfink, sometimes I can have a reversal done well and it's really funny to see how google's results change according to which google you use... google.it doesn't list warbirds site in the first 10 pages... who knows where it puts it!