Author Topic: Common Sense Has Left the Building... (Read 2324 times)

Toad · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2007, 02:35:42 PM »

No, the Unions won't change CEO compensation and all the other stuff.

All a Union can do is try to grab a bigger slice of the pie when there's a big pie.

And Union mangement teams are just as corrupt as CEO management teams. They make themselves as insulated and comfortable as they can too.

Which is why I always say the only thing worse than a Union is no Union.

The system suxxors, in both politics and in corporations. In the end, it's the average Joe that gets stuck with the bill and the problems from both situations.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2007, 02:44:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Here's the problem: GREED

Quote

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.
--- Gordon Gekko

Debonair · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2007, 03:01:31 PM »

OMG calvin should pee on those d00ds lolol

SirLoin · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2007, 05:47:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Were would cuts do the most good? Top management of union workers? Were to the other successful car companies make cuts? What other company pays the same salary and benifiets and survives? Is it the jap companies? the germans?

lazs

Ford has a pension plan...The Jap corps do not..That's the main reason the big 3 are being undercut.

SirLoin · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2007, 05:51:43 PM »

Another point..the unions have absoluteley no say in product design or engineering.

Yeah..Blame the unions for Ford's own fault.

Ford Employee

kamilyun · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2007, 07:26:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SirLoin
Another point..the unions have absoluteley no say in product design or engineering.

Design and engineering is where Ford (and GM to a slightly less extent) are t3h suck.

Compare a Toyota Camry with a Ford Five Hundred and a Chevy Impala at similar prices. Camry rules in almost all categories.

Ford want to not die? Build a better car first and it's market share will take care of itself.

lazs2 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2007, 08:56:01 AM »

well.. we agree then... unions suck but they are only getting as much as they can before the company collapses unlike the evil management.

Ok.. unions do not design the cars.. management doesn't either.. engineers do. Good ones. but..

If labor costs are 70% for your car say and 50% for the competitions... as an engineer.. you are going to be asked (yes by management) to cut costs.

Some things are gonna be painless and not be noticed but at some point... you are gonna be making a very chintzy product compared to the competition and it is gonna show.

Perhaps it would be good to tie managements benifiets to the health of the company. We are kinda seeing this with say enrons guys going to prison... but.. it could be done.

The unions are the lions share tho.. it costs more to build American cars because of the unions and we can't get around that. You just can't... In order to do so you would have to say that the jap manufacturers here... are evil and force them to unionize to level the playing field.

A level playing field in this case would mean... worse... but union... cars for everyone that cost more.

lazs

Toad · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2007, 10:45:17 AM »

Here's the difference

Each side will cherrypick the data that supports their argument but this chart makes it obvious to me that there's more than just "union" to this problem.

Healthcare or no healthcare?

Huge difference in number of retirees.

Much more time to produce a GM vehicle than a Toyo.

Average plant capacity utilization differs greatly as well.

There are decisions that have to be made and not all the mistakes can be placed at the feet of the unions.

lazs2 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 05, 2007, 02:53:18 PM »

so toad... you don't think the union had anything to do with the time it takes to build a car or how much money is available to make the best use of the facilities?

I recall some of my experiances with unions where they were absolutely against any modernization that would lay off workers.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 05, 2007, 02:58:12 PM »

using your link it would appear that the costs to build a vehicle are about double in labor for a GM union employee.. Health care costs are about 5 times as much...

The union demands "protected" jobs.. (useless but still drawing wages) while the toyota plants give bonus pay for production... the toyota plant is able to use more capacity of the plant with it's far lower labor costs by using overtime..

Tell me again what part is the managment part?

lazs

tedrbr · « **Reply #25 on:** February 05, 2007, 03:03:04 PM »

Hmmm.... Toyota Tundra, Honda ST1300, and Polaris Victory Hammer in the garage...... guess this means very little to me.

American auto makers, and to some degree the aerospace industry, and a high portion of the high tech industry in the United States, all going to go the way of the coal industry and steel industry.

Lack of leadership, good business sense, and intelligence from industry and government.

Get used to it, adjust, and move on best you can.

Toad · « **Reply #26 on:** February 05, 2007, 03:38:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
so toad... you don't think the union had anything to do with the time it takes to build a car or how much money is available to make the best use of the facilities?

lazs

I think it has as much to do with managment/engineering as it does with unions.

For example, there are some really old US facilities and some really new Toyo facilities.

Many of those workers sitting around drawing pay and not going to work were idled by modernization of facilities. However, the fact remains that our factories are, in general, not as modern as the new factories the Japanese built here.

Additionally, I don't think our engineers are as sharp as theirs when it comes to production techniques.

What it all comes down to is that there are a lot of factors in this and not all of them lie at the feet of the union. The responsibility for failure is shared.

Toad · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2007, 03:42:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
using your link it would appear that the costs to build a vehicle are about double in labor for a GM union employee.. Health care costs are about 5 times as much...

The union demands "protected" jobs.. (useless but still drawing wages) while the toyota plants give bonus pay for production... the toyota plant is able to use more capacity of the plant with it's far lower labor costs by using overtime..

Tell me again what part is the managment part?

lazs

The management part is the design/marketing part. They are getting their tulips handed to them in both categories. They build poor designs and use rebates to market same. It's clearly a factor, deny it as you like.

Also, what of the retirees? A huge expense for the US makers with pay and health care costs of retirees. The "new" Japanese companies have few retirees at this point.

So what do you do there to level the field Laz? These folks that gave their lives to the company in exchange for a contractually guaranteed retirement should be.. what? Turned out, cut loose with a firm handshake and a "too bad"?

Does the company get to abandon them?

It's another one of the multiple factors.

Hap · « **Reply #28 on:** February 05, 2007, 04:09:22 PM »

It's like folk lined up at a pig trough. Too busy devouring the dollars to care about much else.

St. Paul is right that the love of money is the root of all evil.

All the Best,

hap

p.s. gosh how I wish our manufacturing base were back. I fear it is gone for good and all. Talk about demise.

lazs2 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 06, 2007, 09:07:15 AM »

toad... I think that both management and labor have gone overboard and need to be adjusted.. I also believe that for unskilled labor... the union workers are getting paid far too much... the ones working for the jap companies seem to be doing fine and are happy.

You ask what I would do... I think it is too late to do much of anything if the unions won't adjust.

It won't be me putting em out in the cold or even the management. It will be the fact that they have killed the golden goose. How is a bankrupt company gonna help em?

Would you say that the japs management ruthlesslesly and relentlessly keeping the powerful unions our their factories was a wise management decision? Good management? It would seem so.

We can't really have this conversation unless you tell us how you feel about the jap management or the fact that they are not using the same crippling unions.

What would be your solution? force the japs to use the same crippling uinions?

if they did.. I can guarentee that their quality and engineering would go down if they tried to keep the same prices.

lazs