Common Sense Has Left the Building...

[Gunthr]

the "take home lesson" is that the great Carnegie would rather kill his workers than share his profits with them , and he did have profits, lots of profits. - John

What about it, John?  Does that relate somehow to what I told Toad?

By the way, I've been a union member all my life, in different industries.  I remember working in sheet metal fabrication in Detroit in the 70,s and using overhead cranes to unload mill coils fresh from the steelmills off of semi tractor/trailers... and specifically the time period when wildcatters were delivering the steel and would come in SHOT UP from Teamster snipers on I-94.

[Toad]

Originally posted by lazs2
toad...  I am not sure what you are saying by "anyone can be bought"

I'm saying anyone can be bought and further I'm saying that professional negotiators with no ties to the group they are negotiating for, that don't have to live under the contract they negotiate are easier to buy. Union leaders can be bought too, I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying outside negotiators can be bought more easily.

 

they are a very final and harsh solution to a problem...  sorta like nukes.. no one wins.

I think I've been saying that very same thing. Where do we differ?

401k?   you don't need the employer for em.

Well, yes you do, actually.

The 401(k) plan is a type of employer-sponsored retirement plan in the United States and some other countries, named after a section of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code. A 401(k) plan allows a worker to save for retirement while deferring income taxes on the saved money and earnings until withdrawal.

 

anyone can open up some form of savings and be rich when the retire.

That's possibly true; you're not just going to plunk a bit of money a week in a savings account and be rich. You'll need more return than that. I think an important point here, however is that all the IRA stuff was instituted pretty much AFTER the present UAW retirees were vested in their company plans. The ones the company promised to pay as part of an overall contract package that both sides agreed upon and signed.

and costs...  it still boils down to the fact that GM spends almost twice as much per hour for labor per hour than toyota...  If you aren't getting twice as much out of em you are gonna have to cut costs somewhere else.   Quality is no 1...  but in this case... it is number one thing to go down the crapper.

Again, what of all those retirees? Just tell 'em "too bad" and quit paying them? Is that a fair deal? Is that right while the managers continue to reward themselves quite handsomely with millions and millions?

[Rolex]

Returning to the original topic for a minute, Toyota and other Japanese company executives don't get bonuses or salaries even close to their American counterparts. Tens of millions of dollars that would have gone into the pockets of a few are better invested in equipment to keep the company competitive. The argument by American car executives that multi-million dollar bonuses and salaries are necessary to retain good people doesn't wash. If that were true, how are competitors earning profits with such "non-competitive" people in management? Toyota gives company performance bonuses to all the employees, not just the executives. I believe Toyota workers in Kentucky got a Christmas bonus of over $10,000.

About half of Toyota vehicles sold in the US are still made in Japan, where the cost of living is almost 50% higher and Toyota has long-standing retirement obligations. And they still have to ship the cars to the US, pay import duties, ship them to dealers after entry and still manage to make a profit. There are many differences in taxes, healthcare, retirement and stockholder expectations between the two societies, though. Japanese workers keep more of their earnings because they pay less in taxes and pay only a fraction of the cost in the US for healthcare.

GM and Ford have almost $100 billion combined in unfunded post-retirement medical liabilities. That gets to the heart of the real money problem for any company doing business in the US. As long as the healthcare and tort law systems remains as they are, nothing will get better for the companies or the workers.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by john9001
the "take home lesson" is that the great Carnegie would rather kill his workers than share his profits with them , and he did have profits, lots of profits.

What a crock of **** john!  The take home lesson is that if people feel it is their right to STEAL what is not theirs, they'll attempt to kill in the process.  THANK ****ING GOD it was put down.  We'd be a communist paradise if it wasn't.  Where you don't own anything.


I wish I could have been there, to shoot those outrageous union members myself.  I'm glad their strike failed.

[Xargos]

We don't own anything in this country anyway, all the government has to do is accuse you of selling drugs and they seize your house, car, boat, funds and dog.  And because they seized your funds you can't hire a good lawyer.  And if you think you own your house try not paying your property tax, the government will show you who really owns it.

[lazs2]

rolex is making some sense...  so long as we have our system our labor will cost more.

Toad.. there are IRA's that people can invest in that are tax deffered... you don't need an employer to do it.

As for you guys saying we need unions or the management would be having the local cops shoot everyone up?   that is against the law... the union doesn't have anything to do with stopping management from killing employees... in fact... with  the mob connections of various unions in the recent past.... probly more people got killed because of unions than would have without em.

With unions... nobody wins.    With bad management... nobody wins.   Both realize this in some dim way and both try to suck as much out of the host before it dies as they can.  

I really don't know what the answer is but rolex hinted at it...

tort reform would go a long ways... by that I mean... "first we hang all the lawyers"   they breed rapidly so this would have to be done every 10 years or so.

You could base the hunting season on how thick the "attorney" section of any metropolitan phone book was.   When it reaches 5% of the total pages... time for a lawyer hunt to thin the herd.

lazs

[Toad]

Originally posted by lazs2
Toad.. there are IRA's that people can invest in that are tax deffered... you don't need an employer to do it.

Sure there are....now. Point is that IRA's are relatively new to the retirement scene if viewed through the lens of someone who worked for GM from 1960 to 1995 and is now retired. That guy was counting on his "company retirement". Probably never figured he would need an IRA.

A lot of what you cite as a difference is "legacy" costs like these that a relatively new start up like Toyo USA doesn't have. What's the answer? Hose the retiree and steal the money he was promised? Same with healthcare really.

Both realize this in some dim way and both try to suck as much out of the host before it dies as they can.

I pretty much agree with that. However, I'd add that management will continue to bleed the host without regard to exterior events. As we've seen, the CEO's have no shame. Enron, Worldcom, the list is long.

See if you agree with this: If the Ford unions gave up  hundreds of millions of dollars in concessions to save the company, the CEO would then award themselves tens of millions for "saving the company".

You know it's true. And Joe Average worker has seen it so many times that he's totally sick of it and unwilling to give those bast tards another hog trough to clean out.

[lazs2]

I agree...  but... let's reverse it... if the management all took huge cuts and the company went into a huge profit cycle....  the unions would ask for a monstrous salary and bennie package for the next contract based on "company profits"

go on... you know they would... everyone does.

Nope...  they are stuck in a cycle off distrust and both have good reasons to be that way.    In the end... there will just be a lot of people out of work and a lot of people going broke.

neither side will give an inch.

lazs

[Toad]

Originally posted by lazs2
I agree...  but... let's reverse it... if the management all took huge cuts and the company went into a huge profit cycle....  the unions would ask for a monstrous salary and bennie package for the next contract based on "company profits"

lazs

I know of a particular example where a union gave up wages and benefits until and if the non-union employees got a raise or the execs took bonuses.

Wanna guess which one happened first?

[Debonair]

OMFG r u a delta pilot??
LMAO
PWNT!!!1

[Hap]

Originally posted by Toad You know it's true. And Joe Average worker has seen it so many times that he's totally sick of it and unwilling to give those bast tards another hog trough to clean out.

Ding!

Give the Man A Cookie,

hap


p.s.  Trenchant Sir Toad

[lazs2]

if the unions are so guilt free in this then how do you explain that unskilled workers are making so much money and are getting twice what comparable workers get?

None of that bothers me... everyone should get what the market will bear... but in this case.. it appears that the union is getting more than the market will bear and is about to kill the golden goose.   it does boil down to that in the end.    Salaries at the top won't do the dragging down.    Incompetence?  sure.. but not a few million a year here and there...

Like teachers... they are overpaid for what they do and... like teachers they control the wages and have a lock..  I hope that public schools fail too..  They would of course but... the public school union workers have made a pact with the devil (democrats) and so are untouchable at this point..  either way...  

cars or schools.. with those unions.. we all lose.   we get failed industry and stupid kids..  I don't think management is the root cause of either..  it is the unions and government interferance.

lazs

[Scherf]

Story in our local financial rag down here yesterday that three academics had made the startling discovery that CEOs were willing to sacrifice long-term shareholder value in order to make short-term revenue targets.

Wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry - those professors must have been the last three people on earth to get the news.

[indy007]

Just food for thought... when the Mustang was re-introduced... it was handled like a Skunk Works operation. Small, compact team, fast decision making. It came in under budget, ahead of schedule, and turned into their best seller. (note: my g/f owns one... and the car sucks, badly... but the project itself was marvelous).

Beauracratic oversight is what kills projects and companies. You can lump crappy CEOs & Union bosses into this category.

When Management or Unions get involved, problems get alot more expensive and time consuming.

When the government gets involved, it becomes far, far worse.



Check out Skunk Works by Ben Rich. Kelly Johnson's rules to live by apply to many different businesses. I run my company with similar rules, and our growth rate is tremendous. It also helps that our products are not nearly as complex as aircraft

[Toad]

Originally posted by lazs2
I don't think management is the root cause of either..  it is the unions and government interferance.

lazs

Which came first, piss-poor management or unions? Answer that honestly and you have your root cause.

We will agree to disagree.