Author Topic: P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots  (Read 630 times)

Offline B@tfinkV

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P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots
« on: February 02, 2007, 11:28:38 AM »
evenin all, couple of films for discussion regarding the use of the P51 Delta as a defensive and turn fighting tool.

i really hope it helps to lessen the smart flying pony tactics and give us a few more turnfighting P51 to save it rep in the ma!1

P51 Film ~1mb


if anyone would like to disect that fight with the spit8 in acm terms im sure there are many that can do it alot better than i. all questions are welcome from those looking to learn more about the P51 there again, are many people here who can give you the low down.

truly was a messure of patience and timing to stay alive, and the help in the end from my wingman.


now the first kill was a very lucky manouver, a 'one timer' that was essential to the lone aircraft surviving more than another 10 seconds. its a simple manouver that must be timed correctly and be assisted by the attacker to some degree, but it takes quite an experienced aim to bring results. aside from lining the correct angle for a decent shot the defender must also equate lead whilst upside down and fitting it all in a window of about 2 seconds of gun time at most.  

personaly i find this kind of shot the most difficult to perform consistantly, with time i have certainly found that the lead is increased far more than it should look like, so firing as soon as you get a good line and holding it on for a god burst.


this is though another excelent point on the ponyD, that forcing a snapshot like that against a faster, higher enemy and making it count with the 6 50cals is not to unlikely with some practice.


alarmingly enough someone else let me do the exact replica manouver on thier P51 while i was flying a spitfire MkIX. the same 'bait n reverse' and the same inverted snapshot, this time with 20mm cannons. it was harder to keep the power on full and make a decent shot in the spit than the pony, and the mass of the mustang held a faster, steadier gun platform providing a much larger window of gun time.

Spit Film ~0.7mb


certainly there was no obvious advantage over the mustang by the spit in that manouver, not as far as flight is concerned. if the P51 and the spit both had the 20mm it would be the hands down winner, and likewise, if the P51 and spit both had 6 50cals the mustang would win hands down, as far as making that reversal and a killshot against a much faster bogey.

in these two clips the spit was obviously saved that its 20mm do such damage to a tail section, as not enough manouver foresight was used to gain the long and closer range snapshot that the pony can generate.

should the attacking aircraft start to turnfight from the begining on the other hand, diving in with the brakes on and going for a killshot, i would much rather be evading them in the spitfire than the P51....
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 11:38:38 AM by B@tfinkV »
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline MajWoody

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P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2007, 10:24:12 AM »
Nice shooting bat. Wish I could shoot that well.
Very well flown!
Lets keep the stupid to a minimum.
Old Age and Treachery, will overcome youth and skill EVERYTIME

Offline Dichotomy

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P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2007, 01:16:18 PM »
Thanks Bat... I'll be viewing these later tonight.  


For all you very new guys when B@t, Murdr, or any of the other trainers or good stick put up a new film WATCH IT... you may not today be able to maneuver your plane as they do but you will eventually.

B@t do you still have a link to the reversal_tutorial?  A friend of mine sent that to me a few weeks back.  I've almost got it down now and it's saved my sorry rear more than once.  Just can't get the SA and killshot down just yet.
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline humble

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nice clip....
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2007, 07:05:52 PM »
actually a couple of things that might be helpful....

1st a great job of turning a 1 on 2 into a 1 on 1. To me that is the hardest skill to learn. Very nice adjustments taking 1st the spitty and pony on in two seperate "mini-merges" then isolating on the pony just long enough to take it out.

You actually had multiple shots on the spitty. The nose fishing on the "rope" might actually have been what won the fight since you "forced" {or he just goofed} the roll under vs a spiral climb that would have topped you out easily. Looks like he got frustrated after some good defense and compounded the overshoot with a flat turn. Once you get a guy relying on the plane then the "pilot" will win 80% or more of the time.....

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Offline B@tfinkV

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P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2007, 12:04:24 PM »
glad it was fun to watch guys, S!



humble that is very true, that the P51 forced the fight down to its Alt, making sure that we do not let the fatter plane get roped by the more nimble.


forcing the enemy to dive on you/attack you is the first step in any succsesfull reversal. making the enemy believe the fight is already won and therefore the overconfidence of the attacker works in the defenders favour.

the pony has very good flaps that can be very usefull in negative energy management IE. slowing down, and this facilitated the escape from the spitfire's guns more than once.


the key was to convert each failed reversal into another reversal setup, never slowing the pony down or climbing with the spit enough to lose the fight outright.

as can be seen from the close call with the trees as the spit lost a wing, the P51 was at the very limit of this ability to drag the fight down above itself and keep the negative E advantage.  had the last gun solution failed the spit would have dominated the pony within 20 seconds, now that the P51 had no air space below it to work with.

S!
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline Mugzeee

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P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2007, 04:49:09 PM »
Once again..its all about the ability to make the shot.. wtg...wish i could do better with gunnery. But i am fairly certain that after this amount of time after HTC changed the Hit Res. as one of their staff refered to it... If i acnt hit anything yet..i likely never will.

Offline 1cemanVS

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P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2007, 05:53:13 PM »
i really like your reversals, and would be interested in being tutored on it more, i get the first part of the moves right, evading the guns, but never end up with as many snap shots as you seemed to get, and/or end up in such good positions as you do, maybe this is down to my  SA but if anyone is willing to help on reversals, would be a great help, outside of absorbing this well done videos :aok

Offline B@tfinkV

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P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2007, 06:38:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dichotomy

B@t do you still have a link to the reversal_tutorial?  


dicho! dude im sorry i lost that file with a reformat, im pretty sure i have it on a back up cd but as yet it eludes me, i will PM you a link if i ever find it.

mugz, i remember in my spit9 you reversed on me in an F4u a while back in the ma, you earned the win but lucky for me missed the shot and my spit with alt and speed won for me.  i mostly only post the sorties where things all go right, and im sure you have those sorties and kills also, and i regularly miss that shot when i most need it and lose the fight just like that instance. most important, cheesy as it sounds, it to belive in your instinctual judgments when it comes to gunnery, and dont try to calculate or think hard about making the shot. be possitive that you can make it and you will get better results, and dont worry about the majority of times if you miss the shot, never carry the negative effect of missing one shot into the next attempt or you imediately reduce your chaces of making it. trust what feels natural on the flight path to the shot, dont snatch your aim away at the last minute unless you are sure you are going to miss, after this much time playing your mind is unwittingly providing you the correct lead with your control stick in the few seconds before you fire. trust it and shoot early for good messure, better too early and waste ammo than too late and die on the next turn.


iceman, its just about repetitive experience, unfortunately to train yourself in these ACMs you must deliberately fly below the fight and let yourself be the target before the fight starts.
 i couldnt tell you the ammount of times i have died like a lemming under a horde of late war aircraft without scratching one of them.
 gradualy i began getting shots off and nipping thier heels and after 500 more deaths i rekoned i had it nailed, only to continue learning every time i play more and more things i am still doing like a sloppy noob that i could easily learn more about, and then the joys of converting your newly hatched fighting technique into every plane in the planeset, and learning so much more than i ever thought possible untill one day i never enjoyed fighting from an advantage again anywhere near as much as winning from the very worst possition available, and the added bonus of having a few tricks available when fighting smart and running home with 5 kills with lla7s up ur tailpipe.
 hmm, when i write sentances that long its time to stop, i would happily spend some time in a the DA or TA, just holler when you see me online anytime.
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline Mugzeee

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P-51 D Low and slow + snapshots
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 01:49:02 AM »
Listen buddy..i suck and everyone knows it!  :D

MugZ Sucks!

Seriously Bat..Thanks for the kind words. I think you are right about the "Be the bullwet" thing..but i just cant seem to get it. Like you said..i do a decent reversal..and blow the shot.

I am worse than when i left..and i wasnt very good then...hehee

But i am having fun these days....and thats what counts.

Thanks for sharin