Author Topic: Spit 16  (Read 11737 times)

Offline Neil Stirling

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 50
Spit 16
« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2007, 10:01:14 AM »
Thanks dtango.

Neil.

Offline Knegel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
Spit 16
« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2007, 12:41:16 AM »
Hi,

if the 109K4 is a 1.98ata version(C3 + MW50) it should outperform the La7, and Spit16 by easy!! Since is dont do this, i guess its the 1.98ata (no MW50) version, which actually have similar results like the 1.8ata (B4 + MW50) version.


Greetings,

Knegel

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
Spit 16
« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2007, 10:36:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,

if the 109K4 is a 1.98ata version(C3 + MW50) it should outperform the La7, and Spit16 by easy!! Since is dont do this, i guess its the 1.98ata (no MW50) version, which actually have similar results like the 1.8ata (B4 + MW50) version.


Greetings,

Knegel


Alt is the determining factor here.

At low alts LA and XVI more than a match. Move it up to med to high alt watch the  109 K4 shine.

Bronk
See Rule #4

Offline Benny Moore

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Spit 16
« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2007, 12:27:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
if the 109K4 is a 1.98ata version(C3 + MW50) it should outperform the La7, and Spit16 by easy!! Since is dont do this, i guess its the 1.98ata (no MW50) version, which actually have similar results like the 1.8ata (B4 + MW50) version


Even if were the case that the current, unperked Me-109K is 1.98 but without the nitrous oxide boost, it is still more powerful than the standard 1.8 ata Me-109K.  You people claiming that the U.S. and British ships should only have their "standard" (mid-war) ratings somehow have no problem with the Me-109 having a higher than standard rating.  This is especially troubling because the U.S. and British fighters (as well as the FW-190) used their higher ratings much, much more than the Me-109.

Fair's fair.  If the Me-109K gets a higher than standard rating, then so should the other ships.  If the Me-109K gets the highest rating used in combat, so should the other fighters.  And if one fighter's higher rating is perked, then the historical equivalent for the other airplanes should be as well.

P-38L at 60" = Me-109K at 1.8 ata
P-38L at 66" = Me-109K at 1.98 ata
P-38L at 75" = Me-109K at 1.98 ata plus nitrous oxide

... Or something like that.  The point is that the first pair were the original pressures, and the other ones came later.  It's hardly fair to use the original pressure for the P-38 but a later one for the Me-109, especially since the higher ratings saw much more use for the P-38 than for the Me-109.

What gets to me are the people who think, "The 1.98 ata Me-109 should not be perked, but a 66" P-38L should be."  The 66" rating for the P-38L was not only extensively used, but was official.  The 1.98 ata rating for the 109, on the other hand, was only used on a handful of ships.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Spit 16
« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2007, 01:36:16 PM »
Quote
if the 109K4 is a 1.98ata version(C3 + MW50) it should outperform the La7, and Spit16 by easy!! Since is dont do this, i guess its the 1.98ata (no MW50) version, which actually have similar results like the 1.8ata (B4 + MW50) version.


 Just what standard are you using when you state "one outperforms the other" here? Our Bf109K-4 already outperforms both the Spit16 and the La-7 in many ways.

 Deck-alt speed issues may be the source of skepticism as there are a variety of reports that rate the speed of the K-4 w/C3+MW50 as being considerably faster than as portrayed in Aces High, but the maximum speed of 452mph is a clear indicator in which engine/fuel configuration our K-4 uses, not to mention there has been a consensus in existance for as long as I can remember, that deduced the identity of our G-10/K-4 as being equipped with a DB605DCM.



Quote
P-38L at 75" = Me-109K at 1.98 ata plus nitrous oxide


 There's no such thing as a "Me109K at 1.98ata plus nitrous oxide". Nor is the boost system equipped on the 109s and 190s anything 'special'. The methanol-water injection system is a standard, mandatory piece of equipment that is standardized and equipped on all 109s after the G-14.



Quote
What gets to me are the people who think, "The 1.98 ata Me-109 should not be perked, but a 66" P-38L should be." The 66" rating for the P-38L was not only extensively used, but was official. The 1.98 ata rating for the 109, on the other hand, was only used on a handful of ships.


 The 66" rating was never "cleared", nor was it in anyway "official".

 The circumstantial evidence concerning it's extensive use has a somewhat broad basis, and assumptions that the ("few remaining", if I may add) P-38s in the ETO in late 1944 are clearly very likely to have been using higher boost ratings. However, as Bodie himself states;

Quote
But, meantime get this single fact: Allison Engineering qualified the F-30 engine WER at 1,725 bhp at 3200 rpm. However, the USAAF NEVER authorized that rating, with ATSC preferring to stick with a 3000 rpm limitation. These engines were in Lockheed P-38L, F-5G and P-38M airplanes. Aircraft installation, maintenance, rigging, supercharger performance, propeller performance, etc. all affected individulal engine and airplane performance. And, as certain pilots, including the great Col. Cass Hough who shared command with Col. (later B/Gen.) Ben Kelsey, would have been glad to tell you, if you needed more in combat situations, you did whatever was necessary to escape being defeated.


 The consensus of many would-be researchers seems to be that the above passage is trying to say the 8thAF were 'illegally' using the unsanctioned boost pressures on their planes as a field mod. Bodie, ofcourse, won't go as far as to clearly verify the fieldsmen were defying the orders from the top.

 On the other hand, both the DB605DBM and DB605DCM configurations on the Bf109K-4 were in every sense a truly "official" configuration of the plane which was cleared for use in standard squadron service. The rarity of the DB605DCM configuration comes from the fact that the C3 grade fuel was largely required for the Fw190s, which was absolutely necessary for flight, unlike the Me109s which can use standard 87octane B4 grade fuel as well. They were losing the war, the fuel supply wasn't enought. The C3 went to the 190Ds, not to the most of the K-4s.

 There is a very, very excellent discussion concerning the existance of these "late P-38Ls" in the IL2 forums, with the participants of both sides coming up with equally interesting and convincing evidence:

P-38L 'late' - the new fantasy plane?


 ...


 HTC sticks to the principle of what we fans call the "official standard". HT has never elaborated just what this is, nor acknowledged the actual existance of such a policy,  but over the years us AH gamers have come to believe that this principle is roughly something like;

1. The planes are modelled according to the most representative of official data set, inclduing official flight tests of sanctioned/standard plane configurations and pilots manuals.

2. When a non-primary, or secondary evidence states a different performance figure coming from a 1) controversial source, 2) individual pilots anecdote, 3) a plane with modified and arbitrary configurations that was never officially sanctioned, the differences are NOT reconciled. There is no 'compromise' in figures. Only the official data set is used, and the rest is dropped.

3. When a certain plane has a multiple set of differing 'official figures', the one most represantative of its major career as a fighter aircraft may be used. For instance if a certain plane is introduced in early 1944. and then its standard performance was increased only in the last few months of the war, then the performance figures during its introduction would be preferred over the figures during the last months of the war.

4. The reason behind the 'official standard' policy is that dabbling into controversial or unclear, unconfirmed data may start a chain reaction of skeptical performance figures being introduced into the game. When one group of planes starts using dubious, anecdotal figures for their planes, there is no basis to stop other planes from using strange figures as well. The line has to be drawn somewhere.


 The problem is that HTC doesn't necessarily strictly adhere to these principles, which is often a source of confusion. Or sometimes, the plane modelled in AH might have multiple aspects of different configurations that even identifying the exact configuration itself seems to be difficult. A prime example of these two problems would be the Bf109K-4.  In other cases, such as the P-38s, there exists a considerable amount of evidence the P-38s did use higher boosts, and yet there is not a single piece of official document that states the P-38s were ever cleared to use the 66" / 1725hp / 3200rpm configuration. However the case of the P-38 clearly falls under the 3rd perceived rule as mentioned above.

 Personally, I believe the higher boost ratings should be included in the game as a perked option, and such measures should be standardized with all planes (for example our Bf109F-4 using 1.42ata, should be derated to 1.30, and the 1.42ata should be given as a perked option). But this is this, that is that. Benny's argument that the 66"/75" P-38L should be introduced on grounds of 'officiality' is clearly wrong.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 02:25:45 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Knegel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
Spit 16
« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2007, 02:06:34 PM »
Hi,

i think you have a misunderstanding regarding the 109K engine. The DB605DB had the same max power with B4 fuel + MW50 or C3 fuel  without MW50.

The AH 109K4 have a Vmax of roundabout 590km/h(366mph) at sea level, thats what this plane did reach with 1.8ata C3 fuel or 1.8ata B4 + MW50.

And this was the absolut common version of the K4, already the K10 did use this engine! The poweroutput at sea level was 1850PS, 1600PS at 6000m and 1275PS at 6800m.

The K4 with DB605DC(1.9-1.98 ata) was rather seldom and would have had 2000PS at sea level, 1800PS at 4900m but also 1275PS at 6800m, with this power it should outperform the La7 also at sea level. This setup should for sure be perked, simply cause it was rare.

The DB605DC only with C3 fuel  on Start/Not(no MW50) had less power than the DB605DB.

Up to 6000m the K4 simply was one of the best accelerating planes in WWII, it had other disadvantages.  

Greetings,

Knegel

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
Spit 16
« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2007, 02:21:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel


Up to 6000m the K4 simply was one of the best accelerating planes in WWII, it had other disadvantages.  

Greetings,

Knegel


Hmm just like in game. Only a few can out accelerates it .


Bronk

Edit: I think only the Tempest and La7 can out accelerate it.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 02:24:52 PM by Bronk »
See Rule #4

Offline TUXC

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 257
Spit 16
« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2007, 02:26:13 PM »
Wasn't the 109k with 1.98ata capable of 377mph on the deck? (I got that from Kurfurst's 109 webpage). Ours is about 10mph slower that that going by the chart in the hangar in the online game.

I think this is the first time I've seen people complaining about a German fighter performing too well.;)  It's a welcome change, but I hope the 109k gets left as is. It's not like everyone is flyng it in the MA anyways....otherwise it'd already be perked!
Tuxc123

JG11

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Spit 16
« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2007, 02:30:07 PM »
Yes... it's only been "recently" that some folks say we have 1.98ata. Up until now nobody has ever argued this, in fact most said the opposite, and begged/pleaded for 1.98ata to be included in the game.

I don't buy that 1.98ata is modeled, currently.

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
Spit 16
« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2007, 02:30:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TUXC
Wasn't the 109k with 1.98ata capable of 377mph on the deck? (I got that from Kurfurst's 109 webpage). Ours is about 10mph slower that that going by the chart in the hangar in the online game.

I think this is the first time I've seen people complaining about a German fighter performing too well.;)  It's a welcome change, but I hope the 109k gets left as is. It's not like everyone is flyng it in the MA anyways....otherwise it'd already be perked!


AHHHHHHHHhahahahhahhhaahaa.
Barbi is teh king (or is that queen )of the cherry picked data.
Take anything by barbi with a huge grain of salt.

Bronk
See Rule #4

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Spit 16
« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2007, 02:42:38 PM »
He would interpret it poorly, with a huge bias, but even Kev's quoted as saying his data is relatively sound.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
Spit 16
« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2007, 03:26:36 PM »
Kweassa,

You make a good point about modeling representitive aircraft instead of the limited or possibly even the test bed aircraft performance that was by far the exception rather than the rule.

AH does a great job putting out the FM that best represents the aircraft that actually fought in combat. Almost any aircraft with fine motor control could be overboosted for a period of time before predetonation or overheating becomes an issue (overheated leads to Pre-detononation). The performance modeled in AH is the performance listed by the corresponding forces that flew them and the manuals that dictated the limits of there use.

The really funny thing is that the only performance stat in AH that people really get stoked about is top speed at sea level which in actual combat was about the last place anyone cared about performance however in the MA it is the single greatest criteria to measure an aircraft by.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Spit 16
« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2007, 05:09:24 PM »
Quote
...however in the MA it is the single greatest criteria to measure an aircraft by.


 Probably the single most defining difference between game combat and actual combat, I believe. Differences in pure maneuverability, or differences in deck speed and such would rarely be of such high importance when assuming a more organized combat where the reactions concerning individual aircraft in a cohesive manner would do far more good than contesting every enemy in a deathlock duel.

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Spit 16
« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2007, 05:35:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
He would interpret it poorly, with a huge bias, but even Kev's quoted as saying his data is relatively sound.


Kurfys data was 'sound' up to the point he shows various docs etc, but no hard proof 1.98ata was ever used on even a single K4.

Me makes a lot of "we can assume", "we can suppose" comments, but nothing to actually back them up.

Even a doc I found shows all the K4 units still using B2 fuel (C3 required for 1.98ata) at the end of March 45.
Only evidence of 1.98ata for 109's was a couple of flights of G-10's using it for 'operational testing' in Jan 45.

Thankfully HT doesn't base FM's on "we can assume", "we can suppose".

Main problem was Kurfys different standards for proof.
We were supposed to accept his assumptions, yet when proof (sqn/line docs) was shown of Spit XIV's converting to 21lbs boost he would say "well thats just one aircraft".
Show the whole squadron converted, "well thats justy one squadron".
Show more than one squadron converted, "well thats just a few squadrons"
You couldn't reason with him.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 05:41:59 PM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Benny Moore

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Spit 16
« Reply #104 on: February 27, 2007, 06:45:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
The 66" rating was never "cleared", nor was it in anyway "official".

Benny's argument that the 66"/75" P-38L should be introduced on grounds of 'officiality' is clearly wrong.


That's not true.  I don't have it, but I have seen the document officially approving 66" for the P-38L.  I believe Widewing will be along shortly to post it.  I've also seen documents approving 72" for the P-51D and 70" for the P-47D.  This is for operational service, not a test aircraft or two.

Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
The really funny thing is that the only performance stat in AH that people really get stoked about is top speed at sea level which in actual combat was about the last place anyone cared about performance however in the MA it is the single greatest criteria to measure an aircraft by.


Balogna!  Power doesn't just improve speed, it dramatically affects climbing abilty, acceleration, and turning ability.  In short, it improves your fighter in every way with no drawbacks (except that you're more likely to break your ship up from overstress if you're stupid).  Try sometime reducing power to nine tenths of maximum throttle for the entire duration of a dogfight and see how well you do in any of the fighters we're talking about (P-38, P-51, P-47, FW-190, Me-109).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 06:52:55 PM by Benny Moore »