Author Topic: Global Warming SOLAR-made not MAN-made  (Read 17622 times)

Offline McFarland

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« Reply #240 on: July 31, 2007, 06:31:08 AM »
So you were a moonshiner too, Angus? Not enough of em left anymore. But moonshining uses only renewable fuels- grass to feed the horse that pulls the plow. Wood from trees that grow back quickly to distill the shine. Corn that grows back quickly every year to make the shine. I don't see any oil being used here. Unless you use a tractor, which you can run on the shine. And you can run your car straight on shine. I did for years, and the engine had less problems than when I ran it on gas. Still no oil used. It burns cleaner than gas even. Corn takes up very little land for the amount of shine you get. It takes even less land than the oil wells and refineries do. And where corn don't grow, (if you could possibly find a place like that), other plants can be grown and fermented to produce alcohol. Such as barley, rye, grapes, cane. It is actually better than oil in almost all respects. The only reason it costs more is because it is so hard to get. Once it is more common, it would be cheaper than oil.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #241 on: July 31, 2007, 06:42:26 AM »
Hehe, I just used sugar, yeast, the summer temp, and an electrical boiler.
Just calibrated the calory numbers, - barley 1.650 vs sugar 4.100.
Just used numbers I know like the back of my hand, - after all they are my field of work, - growing things, and the numbers from brewing which my father taught me a long time ago.
Potatoes in the land here would increase the output a lot. You have like 2 or three times the amounts of kcal pr ha, but the work is heavier. However, with advanced distilling (methanol yealds more) yoou also increase the output.
It was just a demo. Always pisses me off to see how much ignorance of those common things is bobbing about.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #242 on: July 31, 2007, 08:49:25 AM »
LOL... so the republicans gave it the "global climate change" moniker and NPR and the liberal media just went with it...  The UN just went with it.

I don't know if I am a fool but I try not to lie.  I believe that you are both tho akh.   I believe that you are religious in your fervor and you will say anything.   I believe you are a fool because I think you believe the global warming alarmists and I think you are a liar because you intentionally skirt the real meat of any subject.

If you really believe that we should not use the term "man made global warming" then I agree since I believe we are doing little or nothing to make the globe warm.

retro... It is difficult to know what you have said since I don't know who I am talking to.   You say that you have always been "retro" something or other but... let's take what you claim to have said.

You say that we should make it free for anyone who uses e85 to use the roads...  no road taxes.   On the face of it that is fine except...  how do you pay for roads?   It is hardly fair since the roads have nothing to do with what kind of fuel you use and... a road tax should be spent only to make and repair roads.   Those who don't use e85 end up paying more taxes than those who do for the same service and the same amount of wear and tear.

Now... say that you got your way and everyone got a tax break...  no taxes...Have you ever seen our (US) get rid of a tax?  they will simply spread the tax or deficit spend to pay for the roads.

If you want to mandate that more cars be made to use the fuel.. that is not really letting the free market work.   That is indeed liberal socialist.

I am glad that you have at last answered (counter or no) my question about what we should do tho....

We should force people to use e85 you say.. no matter what it does to the price or to the car companies.

I don't know where I have ever not answered on of your questions but if you have any then just put em out there.

I don't believe I ever said that wanting to force e85 on people was part of your religion tho... your religion is that you believe we are the driving factor in the climate.   I guess that making everyone switch without a lot more study might fit into the religious end of it tho.

you can't grow all those crops to burn in your car without affecting food production.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #243 on: July 31, 2007, 08:53:41 AM »
mcfarland... you can't simply fill your tank with "shine" and call it good.  It won't run for crap.

You need almost twice as much of the low energy booze than you do gasoline.  you would need to rejet...no... throw away the jets in your carb.  you would have to pour the stuff in to the engine to get any power out of it...

I think all you "man made global warming" acolytes should listen to angus and mcfarland and go buy a bunch of alcohol and pour it into your tank right now... go ahead... mcfarland says it will run "just fine".

To be accused of being a fool and a liar in this company is an honor.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #244 on: July 31, 2007, 08:59:30 AM »
but wait.... the graph shows up and down temp changes... during the time that it is staying even (that would be now) or going down... the co2 has trippled.. according to the alamists.

Why do you suppose the big push to panic is on?  They have to get the stuff they want before the big yellow globe makes liars out of em and takes away the glory and the grants.

What have we done to make the temp stop rising?  oh wait... there was some article as I recall that "proved" it couldn't be the sun because the "brightness" had gone down recently... the suns real activity will go down.. the temp will go down...Co2, as always will just tag along for the ride.

So what do we do when the suns activity slows and we go into a cold period?  If we are still alive... I bet the farm there will be some alarmists that will be trying to tell us it is our fault.   That if we don't give them the money and stop whatever we are doing at the time... we will freeze to death.

lazs

Offline Charon

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« Reply #245 on: July 31, 2007, 09:04:56 AM »
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For the benefit of people actually prepared to read this para (which may not include lazs2) here is one of my suggestions. Most countries have an annual tax on cars. In America, there are sometimes two levels of tax – a “city sticker”, and the license plate tags. Other countries have different types of stickers eg. “vignette” in Switzerland and France. What I would do if I was in control of government finance would be to zero rate this tax for all vehicles running on alternative fuel eg. E85 and bio diesel, for the next two years and then review the situation and consider an extension. Most people have never heard of E85 because it’s not being pushed and is subject to the same taxes as other fuels. The zero rate would not cost governments much because only a handful of vehicles run on E85. The zero rate would put alternative fuels into the spotlight and (I believe) would encourage take up. I’m not saying that this single step is going to “solve global warming”, before some smart alec (lazs2?) suggests that’s what I meant. It’s one of a large package of measures that govts could take. Remember, vehicle emissions account for only about 25% of man made greenhouse gas emissions. Of course, my suggestion may not interest drivers of “hot rods”, but the vast majority of drivers just want a car that gets from A to B and don’t give a damn what fuel it runs on as long as costs are within reason.


About the most we can expect biofuels to deliver relative to projected liquid fuel demand by 2025-37 or so is 3 percent. A significant breakthrough in cellulosic ethanol or algae as a biodiesel feedstock "might" impact his somewhat depending upon the yields and how the infrastructure is developed. The reality is biofuels will not solve our problems today in the the near (decades) future.

Currently there is a $.52 cent per gallon tax subsidy on ethanol and about $1 on biodiesel to make them cost competitive with petroleum. Improved technology (feedstock) can help and improved demand and volume can help. BTW, while ethanol is 30 percent less efficient than gasoline (leading to poorer mileage) it is an octane enhancer and can produce improved HP which of course is of interest to hot rodders.

E-85 suffers from this lower energy content, meaning that consumers should see a street price $.20 lower than conventional gasoline to get the same value in the product -- which makes it a tough proposition even with the subsidy (see, it is not taxed the same, you GET tax dollars for blending it in gasoline). Even the ethanol industry is pushing more for e-10 (10 percent blend) which is already in 50 percent of our gas compared to E-85 which barely registers. The energy shortcomings are diluted at this level, it's octane enhancements are a positive, and most critically it represents a volume that corn based ethanol can meet comfortably which goes back to the core economic roots of biofuel legislation.

Then there is "fuel to food," concerns and commodities speculation (like you have with crude and refined products on the other side) creating price volatility comparable to petroleum.

Ethanol is also difficult to transport in pipelines (virtually impossible) leading to high transportation costs (rail, barge, truck) and the need for localized production which in turn really needs to come from cellulosic sources.

Similarly, while biodiesel is cleaner burning than diesel (even ULSD) by a long shot it also has negatives like cold flow issues which rule out blends in the B-20 (20% biodiesel) range or higher in colder climates leaving B-5 about the most viable  universal formulation.

These are not my opinions per se, but those of The American Coalition for Ethanol, The National Biodiesel Board, Dr. Lee Lynd at Mascoma who just won a MIT sustainability award for his work on cellulosic ethanol, the API and about 8 or nine other sources I have personally interviewed in the past month or so on an issue I have been covering since it was all about ADM moving more corn-product with congressional help. In fact, there is far more similarities of position than difference between big oil and big agribusiness on this issue. Both big and small oil can now get a piece of that subsidy support.

Biofuels have a "role to play" but are not seen as a solution to our energy consumption even by those on the front line of promoting biofuels. Frankly, IMO, that role has little to do with the environment :) You want to reduce transportation emissions? Slap a $2 per gallon tax on fuel not used for commercial purposes. Let's see how much will there is for that even with the Prius set.

Charon
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 10:22:20 AM by Charon »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #246 on: July 31, 2007, 09:04:57 AM »
As for switching to biofuels... if it is cost effective and when oil reaches a certain price range and if we are not allowed to discover more of it...

I have no problem with it.   Let the market decide.  Best way.   I worked on a pit crew for a alcohol burning dragster years ago... had jets the size of your thumb.  It made great power.  used more than twice as much fuel tho.

So no problem... let the market decide on ethanol.   It is affecting crop production right now and every study I read says that ethanol can't work without "subsidies"   do you like subsidies?    For the agribusiness?

I guess in your mind that George Bush is a genius right?  he has been pushing e85 over electric and hybrid cars for ages.

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #247 on: July 31, 2007, 09:31:32 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus
Firstly, the whole discussion is about the things mother nature is NOT doing.
 


I don`t know what discussion you are in Angus, but try the present one. :)The thing is Angus, nobody knows what mother nature will do in the future..on her own. I stress on her own. Never has, never will. Too many things are being said as fact , when in truth there cannot be due to the things occuring naturaly that cannot be factored in.

Quote
As for robbing ourselves, - well, I think actually that it is us that are robbing...mother Nature.


I think not. Mother nature is pretty hard to jack up. :)
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #248 on: July 31, 2007, 09:35:55 AM »
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Originally posted by McFarland
So you were a moonshiner too, Angus?  


:rofl :lol :aok

Sorry....a Windex breakdown moment. :)


I`m still waiting on the brain surgeon moment.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline AKH

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« Reply #249 on: July 31, 2007, 11:09:25 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
LOL... so the republicans gave it the "global climate change" moniker and NPR and the liberal media just went with it...  The UN just went with it.


Try reading my post again - that's not what it says, despite whatever spin you choose to put on it.

Quote
I don't know if I am a fool but I try not to lie.  I believe that you are both tho akh.   I believe that you are religious in your fervor and you will say anything.   I believe you are a fool because I think you believe the global warming alarmists and I think you are a liar because you intentionally skirt the real meat of any subject.


You can believe what you like.  Unfortunately for you, that simple act doesn't make it true, does it now?
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google koan: "Your assumptions about the lives of others are in direct relation to your naïve pomposity."

Offline Angus

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« Reply #250 on: July 31, 2007, 11:58:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
I don`t know what discussion you are in Angus, but try the present one. :)The thing is Angus, nobody knows what mother nature will do in the future..on her own. I stress on her own. Never has, never will. Too many things are being said as fact , when in truth there cannot be due to the things occuring naturaly that cannot be factored in.

 

I think not. Mother nature is pretty hard to jack up. :)


Our mother nature is now, due to increased research, getting more and more known. Especially the "on her own" part such as volcanic activity etc.
Meteors are now being spotted and chartered, one day, if mankind lives that long, you will find one on an intercept course.
As for the pretty hard to jack up part, (I call it screw-up), you're wrong and it should be staring you in the face. We're already on a good highway with that one. We basically have a countdown with a complete jack-up, but before there we should make an equilibrum, where nature starts jacking up our own logistics. Of course we can temporarily jack everything up with  flick of a switch....

And Lazs:

"So no problem... let the market decide on ethanol."

Not just ethanol. Methanol, and bio-oil. Remember, even in scandinavia, one hectar can leave a lot of oil directly useable for engine consumption as an excess for the oil used for the process. And then there is still the biomass (leaves) that can be directly used for ethanol/methanol process, as well as the excess from the oil, which is protein feed for animals.
Of course the market in the field relies on another resource, and seems to fight against this effort...
Well, after all, what to expect. You have companies running the process from pumping, through refining, to delivery. OOOps. Do they want competition from a million sources? nooooope.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #251 on: July 31, 2007, 02:28:29 PM »
ok angus.. and retro to an extent...

So ethanol is great and renewable and cheap... if that is the case then why does it have to be subsidized?   I mean.. I can see giving them tax breaks to start up/build refineries...even tax breaks for "exploring" new ways and products but...

If it is so great... why do you have to give tax breaks to people to con em into using it?

The subsidies seem endless... first you give the farmer tax breaks and huge subsidies to raise the crops... to the point of hurting food production such as corn in mexico... then you subsidize the refiner and give him a huge tax break... then the distributor and then the city or state that welcomes him and then the vehicle manufacturers and then the people who buy the vehicles and.. the fuel itself..

Who do you think is paying for all this?   Are you figuring that into what it costs for every gallon produced?   Or... do you simply favor the government getting by on that much less income?

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #252 on: July 31, 2007, 02:38:38 PM »
akh...for either of us.   But it does point out that perhaps we should be a little careful about calling people "fools and liars".   At some point on this whole global warming by man thing....

the truth will come out... I have watched the "predictions" change (as have you if you are truthful) just in the last couple of years... not near as hysterical...

the reason that "global climate change" is now being used by the left...by stations like NPR... is because the jig is almost up on the "man made global warming" scam... it will get cooler no matter what we do or don't do.  They need to blame us for all temp change..  

The beauty of it is... with "global climate change"  any change at all... even no change... anywhere and everywhere on the planet can be used to push agendas... nothing to prove.. no need... too hot?  mans fault.. rained today?  mans fault... too cold?  mans fault.. to many or too few hurricanes... well.. you get the point.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #253 on: July 31, 2007, 02:43:31 PM »
charon.. thanks..  I was looking for that info myself but a search just turns up hippy sites that are short on fact and big on giddy.  the numbers get buried in the avalanche of deadhead theatrics.

What it boils down to is that if you add the subsidy (that we all pay) and add up the fact you are gonna use 30% more of the stuff to do the same thing and the subsidies for farms (farm corporations really)  and the increased cost in getting the stuff to the distributor...

A real cost of $1 a gallon or more extra is not far off... add this to the fact that your car will be down on power.

To make your car perform worse costs you a buck a gallon or more extra...

Do you really think people are going to be happy with that?  does that seem like a viable solution at this time?

lazs

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #254 on: July 31, 2007, 03:00:47 PM »
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Originally posted by DiabloTX


:rofl :rofl :rofl :cry

Oh man, I laughed until I cried. Thanks Diablo.

In other news, did anyone stop to consider that it was putting all those Mars rovers on the surface that screwed up the Martian environment? They were doing fine until we started dicking around over there :lol

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.