G.55 Centauro Lobbying Thread

[Ball]

Originally posted by Krusty
The CR42 was produced in numbers slightly higher than the C202, but most of these were pre-war, and they were far far obsolete before the war started. Italy's Air Force knew this at the time. It was built in higher numbers than any other IT plane, but did not see use more than the C.200, the G.50, the C.202, or the c.205/g.55.

It was confined to training, light attack, and even some night fighting, but it was just too poor an aircraft to keep up with anything else it would meet in the air.

It was in service in 1939 and served in 'training events' like the Battle of Britain, North Africa and Malta (where did you get your info from?).  Over 1,000 aircraft were built and served throughout the war.

Therefore i think that makes it a far more important Italian aircraft to add, and if the G.55 is added before, it would be the equivalent of adding the Gloster Meteor before the Hawker Hurricane

[VWE]

If the G.55 gets added I see it getting pwnd by C.205's... I see top speed listed as 385 for the G.55 and 400 for the lesser C.205 not to mention the weight issue. I think the P-39 and my He-111 have a better shot at making it. But don't let me distract your discussions...

[Ball]

Originally posted by humble
Actually the G55 was the single most important fighter of the entire war....

Originally posted by humble
Obviously this is a "what if" scenario, but to me this is one of the great things about a simulation of this type. The G.55 is an intriguing option that will not only be very competitive (and widely used) but also highlight one of the little known "alternative history" threads. Had the G55 been adopted its very very possible the US would have had to abandon daylight bombing in 1943......

What if? the Fiat G.55 made a huge impact.

Here it is raising the flag over the Reichstag in 1945: -



When the USAF wanted to test the F-22, in a little known test they flew a squadron of them against a Fiat G.55.  I have managed to secure the test film from this amazing event: -



Also, many things have been heavily influenced by the design of the Fiat G.55, i think you will agree that the similarities between these and the Fiat are incredible - it is almost impossible to tell them apart: -

 

[LancerVT]

lol

[VWE]

Lets put this thread into perspective and move it to the 'wish list' along with all the other aircraft that had such an impact as a production run of 130 would produce. I mean even Germany was able to produce 1,400 some 262's and those were extremely rare to actually run across.

[quintv]

Ball - Brilliant Sir, simply Brilliant.

[pipz]

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!Great stuff Furball

Pipz

[Krusty]

All right, cool it. Way off topic. Don't need a b***c fest inside a legit lobbying thread.

Ball, if you want a nice break-down of the Cr.42 history, please check this webpage.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/Cr42.html

I found it quite interesting.

Note that quite a number fo the Cr.42s were exported. Over 400+ were lost in the retreat in Africa. After 1942 they were reduced to trainer or (a small group) night fighters -- but they couldn't catch what they were chasing at night.

They "served" until 1944 only because the Luftwaffe used them as trainers, liason aircraft, and tried to equip them with night attack gear, but only to be replaced with Ju87s.

Surely an interesting aircraft. NOT a front line aircraft. A second-rate light-attack aircraft. No more important, than (for example) the Fw189 was.

[Ball]

Originally posted by Krusty
Surely an interesting aircraft. NOT a front line aircraft. A second-rate light-attack aircraft. No more important, than (for example) the Fw189 was.

Thanks for the link.

It was a front line fighter.  It was only in 41 that they used it as a ground attack aircraft.  How can you claim it is no more important than the Fw189?

Turning back to the Regia Aeronautica, its first operations in World War II took place after 6/10/40 against France and were effected by the CR.42s of 53° Stormo (150° and 151° Gruppi) and of 3° Stormo (18° and 23° Gruppi). A couple of days after also the 13° Gruppo in Libya started operations against British forces. On the French front, the CR.42s claimed ten victories against five losses, but these must be read as optimistic, a 1:1 ratio should be closer to the truth. In Africa, the most intense operations took place in Somalia and Ethiopia and there, the Comando Africa Orientale Italiana had 36 CR.42s available employing them from 3 to 8/19/40 and obtaining air superiority against the RAF. But the losses and the attrition was great and, notwithstanding the further 51 CR.42s delivered by transporting them dismantled inside the S.82s, the isolation of the AOI begun to be a heavy necessity to be overcome and from 1/41 the aircraft available steadily diminished, going down from 26 on 1/10, to only five by mid-April. The two only surviving CR.42s managed to fight up to 10/41, but by 11/27/41 the AOI was lost, and 87 CR.42s with it.

Another operation that took place by late 1940 was the infamous Corpo Aereo Italiano (C.A.I.). The propaganda operation designed to have Italian aircraft operating against the RAF on the Channel was ill conceived and conducted and showed at full the defects and the approximation of the Regia Aeronautica. The FIAT CR. 42s operating with C.A.I. were fifty, belonging to 18° Gruppo. On 10/19/40 they transferred on to the Belgian airfield of Ursel. The first action took place on 10/29, when 39 CR.42s escorted the Br.20s over Ramsgate. On 11/11 the bombers were escorted over Harwich by 40 CR. 42s but were intercepted by Spitfires and Hurricanes causing the loss of three CR.42s, while another nineteen were forced to crash-land in Belgium due to lack of fuel caused by the combat. The last action of November took place on the 29th between Margate and Folkstone with a combat against Spitfires that caused the loss of two more CR.42s (the British losses are still uncertain, if any). On 1/10/41 the CR.42s began to come back to Italy. Lack of heating equipment, open cockpits, primitive radio sets, in addition to an absolute lack of navigational capacities of the Italian pilots (a specific training was undertaken only after 1942) transformed this operation in a real nightmare for those involved!

A front where the CR.42 operated in better conditions from the start was the North African one. The 127 "Falco" available in 13° Gruppo, 10° Gruppo and 9° Gruppo operated against an enemy equipped with the Gloster Gladiator, an equivalent biplane fighter. The first combat on 11/19/40 involved the Italian units and the Australian 3 Sqn. RAAF and this was followed by other combats on 12/10 and 12/26. Notwithstanding further CR.42s sent from Italy (among them those of 18° Gruppo, coming from C.A.I.), the Italian retreat and the loss of Cyrenaica by 2/41 brought to the loss of over 400 aircraft, many of them destroyed on the ground in front of the enemy advance. With the arrival of German troops and the start of the new offensive, the main task for the CR.42 biplane begun to be the close support to the ground units and when, on 4/41, the first CR.42 AS arrived (AS = Africa Settentrionale), equipped with sand filters and attachment points for two bombs, the switch of role was clear. The enemy had Hurricanes by now and the CR.42 surely was more useful in the ground support role. Thus, used more and more exclusively on this role with 160° Gruppo, 158° and 159° Gruppi (constituting 50° Stormo Assalto), 101° Gruppo Assalto and 15° Stormo Assalto, the CR.42s followed all the North African campaign showing on many occasions the bravery of its pilots and by early 1943 the surviving 82 examples were sent back to Italy from Tunisia.

We have to give a look also at three other important theatres of operations: Greece, Crete and Malta. The operations against Greece involved 46 CR.42s of 150° Gruppo at first against Greek aircraft and later against the RAF. Almost twenty Fiats were lost by the end of the campaign. The operations against Crete in late 5/41 were supported by the biplanes of 162a and 163a Squadriglia used as fighter-bombers. The offensive against Malta started since the first day of war and involved the CR.42s of 17° Gruppo, 9° Gruppo (before going to Libya) and 23° Gruppo. After a full year of war the RAF had claimed 16 confirmed destroyed CR.42s over Malta. 7 additional were claimed as probables and 6 were claimed as damaged. Totally RAF made claims for 106 confirmed, 47 probables and 38 damaged over Malta. It was a wearing war and only by 1942 the CR.42s were fully replaced by the Macchi C.202s and the Reggiane Re.2001s.

[Krusty]

Let me rephrase. I worded that poorly.

It was a front-line aircraft, in the regards that it filled the gap until they could get the G.50s and C.200s out.

"Front line" to me indicates it was the tip of the spear, taking the fight to the enemy aircraft, and shootin down the enemy aircraft. It did not perform well, and losses were high even when they were relatively successful. It was dumped into ground support because there wasn't anything else it could do, and they're not going to just dump 1000+ aircraft when a war is going on. They're going to use them in reduced capacity, whatever that may be.

To me, being pushed from fighter to ground attack (especially when so lightly armed in the first place) because of inferiority is a demotion, removing it from the "front line" fighters category. That's how I see it. Sorry if my wording was confusing.

The same way that the Hurricane was deemed inferior and too slow and underpowered, and relegated to ground attack roles (heh, contrary to its role in THIS game, eh?).

As an aside: The "front line" fighters, IMO, were the C.200, G.50, and C.202.

[Bronk]

One man's trash is another man's treasure.
Or one mans second rate fighter is another's front line.

IE
Brewster for the Finns.
P-39 for the Russians.

Krusty do you ever tire of being wrong?


Bronk

[humble]

Originally posted by Ball
It doesnt matter what context they were written in.  There is nothing you could put about the G.55 to justify it being "the single most important fighter of the entire war".

"might have been" would have been better wording....but the underlying premise remains valid. The mere fact that the germans even considered it illustrates just how serious the problem was. For the G.55 to "win" the recomendation it had to clearly beat the 109 (G4) by a substantial margin.

In 1943 the air war over western europe was still winable by the germans. Had the G.55 entered widespread service it might have actually tipped the balance back to the germans. Both the german and italian pilots in Italy/med felt the G.55 {and C205} clearly outclassed the 109's.

As a side note the G55/II did have 5 x 20mm and did fly in 1944. Kurt Tank continued to lobby hard for the G55 well into 1944 but it was never put into production.

[Ball]

Originally posted by humble
"might have been" would have been better wording....

 

[Krusty]

[Bronk]