Author Topic: hostage release  (Read 2543 times)

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2007, 02:18:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
Official response from the so-called soldiers (paraphrased) was that they chose to surrender in order to avoid escalation in an already tense situation. Their decision was upheld by the top-brass as being the correct decision.
 


That guys were on combat duty, weren't they? Surrendering to enemy forces without even attempting to fight back, while standing on your own land - it's... i don't know... cowardice and treason. Life threat? - you guys SERVE, it's your duty to risk lives.

All i can say - I wonder how this people wanted to have a nuclear war with us....

Offline john9001

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« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2007, 02:29:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
That guys were on combat duty, weren't they? Surrendering to enemy forces without even attempting to fight back, while standing on your own land - it's... i don't know... cowardice and treason. Life threat? - you guys SERVE, it's your duty to risk lives.

All i can say - I wonder how this people wanted to have a nuclear war with us....


amazing, boroda and I agree on something, see there is hope for the world after all.:)

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2007, 02:30:03 PM »
Hi Mav,

Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
I imagine that the sudden and rather showy release of the Brits by amanidnutjob is a sign of the discord he has in his country. If he figured he had total control of the situation in iran he would have had no reason to release them so soon or in the manner that he did. There was still more political sway to build outside the country by keeping them. My guess is that he felt he could not keep them safe from the more radical elements in his government that wanted to put them on trial or "punish" them so he had to get them out of the country before that happened knowing the political chaos that would cause for his country internationally.


Actually, and I know this is hard to believe, but Iran's military - even the Revolutionary guard - is actually more sane and politically inclined than the civilian leadership. That isn't surprising considering that the government is now being run by the Imams and student radicals (including Ahmadinejad) who were the foot soldiers and hostage takers in the 1979 Islamic revolution. The Army on the other hand is slightly more conservative and even keeled (which keep in mind is a relatively statment). Apparently it was pressure from the military (in particular RG generals Safavi and Rezai) and the realization of their short-term objectives (embarrass the West, divert attention from Nukes, force the return of their "diplomat") that caused the government to change its tune at the last moment. That and a third CVBG headed for the gulf didn't hurt.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Hap

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« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2007, 02:38:24 PM »
If what I read be correct, Brits' rules of engagement bar them from attacking Iran.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2007, 05:03:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hap
If what I read be correct, Brits' rules of engagement bar them from attacking Iran.


So you admit that they were in fact caught in Iran?

I simply wonder HOW could it happen that a Royal Navy patrol wasn't covered by all possible forces. Even if they were in Iranian space - who cares? Save your people and let diplomats take care of the issue later.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2007, 08:48:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
That guys were on combat duty, weren't they? Surrendering to enemy forces without even attempting to fight back, while standing on your own land - it's... i don't know... cowardice and treason. Life threat? - you guys SERVE, it's your duty to risk lives.

All i can say - I wonder how this people wanted to have a nuclear war with us....


That's hardly the situation but far be it from you to understand that. They were on the water in an inflatable boat, surrounded by a force with superior numbers and with far superior weapons. You might think dying gloriously is great with your keyboard experiance but it is foolish to expend people for no gain other than body bags with your people in them, that's just suicide.

They were in iraqi territory but that is immaterial given the weapon and numbers inequality.
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2007, 09:20:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
That's hardly the situation but far be it from you to understand that. They were on the water in an inflatable boat, surrounded by a force with superior numbers and with far superior weapons. You might think dying gloriously is great with your keyboard experiance but it is foolish to expend people for no gain other than body bags with your people in them, that's just suicide.

They were in iraqi territory but that is immaterial given the weapon and numbers inequality.


Do what you have to do and let it be as it should be.

They didn't even open fire.

Open fire and call for support.

What they did is simply sick.

When admiral Nebogatov surrendered to Japanese in Tsushima - he probably had to sink his vessels, he had no chance to even fight back. Nebogatov was  centenced to death by court-martial.

Before Nebogatov there was only one Russian vessel that surrendered. It deserved a special Royal order. Making it's crew and officers outlaws in the Empire. In Sinop battle Russian fleet first targeted it, and only after setting it on fire they turned to burning Turkish fleet.

Sinop was the last victory of the Russian Navy.

Later Russians preferred to die but not surrender.

Battleship Slava, Moonzund strait, 1917, fought with two German dreadnought-class battleships. 20 guns vs 4. They were out of Russian artillery range. Slava's commander had to sink starboard compartments to elevate his 12" guns so he could reach the enemy. Germans withdrew. Slava was sunk by it's crew on the shallow part of the strait after it exausted it's ammunition. This is how it should be IMHO. Varyag cruiser's crew didn't hesitate to come out for a fight with a ten-times stronger enemy squadron - they simply had to do it, no doubts at all.

Noone wants to die, but sometimes life is worse then death.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2007, 09:22:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
They were on the water in an inflatable boat, surrounded by a force with superior numbers and with far superior weapons.  


the question remains, why were they put in that situation without proper backup. Are the English still picking their officer corp from the nobility?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 09:26:51 PM by john9001 »

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2007, 09:40:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
Are the English still picking their officer corp from the nobility?


Recently I re-read "HMS Uliss" by Alister McLean.

It's unbelievable if what he wrote is true.

At the same time Soviets sailed in Arctic Ocean on the shallow-water Baltic destroyers type 7, that simply broke apart on oceanic waves.

After reading McLean I understood that our Fathers have indeed built an Utopia.

Offline Edbert

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« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2007, 10:28:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
That's hardly the situation but far be it from you to understand that. They were on the water in an inflatable boat, surrounded by a force with superior numbers and with far superior weapons. You might think dying gloriously is great with your keyboard experiance but it is foolish to expend people for no gain other than body bags with your people in them, that's just suicide.

They were in iraqi territory but that is immaterial given the weapon and numbers inequality.

Then it remains to be answered why the brass allowed or sent them into the mission of boarding that merchant vessel without appropriate weapons to complete the mission. A second, related but even more important question is why were those men sent on a mission AND an incursion by Iranian paramilitary forces (particularly one sufficient in strenght and firepower to overwhelm the boarding party) allowed to infiltrate the perimiter and overwhelm the Marines?

FWIW all I saw on the video was some revolutionary guardsmen in small boats, has the Royal Navy nothing at their disposal to compete with that, and if so why were they not used to protect their servicemen and prevent the Iranians from attacking?

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2007, 11:35:54 PM »
Guys,

Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
Then it remains to be answered why the brass allowed or sent them into the mission of boarding that merchant vessel without appropriate weapons to complete the mission. A second, related but even more important question is why were those men sent on a mission AND an incursion by Iranian paramilitary forces (particularly one sufficient in strenght and firepower to overwhelm the boarding party) allowed to infiltrate the perimiter and overwhelm the Marines?

FWIW all I saw on the video was some revolutionary guardsmen in small boats, has the Royal Navy nothing at their disposal to compete with that, and if so why were they not used to protect their servicemen and prevent the Iranians from attacking?


This is getting out of hand, here is the situation.

The Royal Navy patrols Iraqi waters and boards countless small boats and ships entering Iraqi waters every day. Most of these are small Dhows trading with Iraq and Kuwait, amongst them are a goodly number of smugglers bringing in arms and explosives from Iran to the Shi 'ia militia in Southern Iraq. The Iranians have had standing gunboat patrols on their side of the line since before the conflict, and now "monitor" all coalition traffic in the area to make sure they don't violate Iranian sovereignty.

The standard procedure is for larger RN vessels like the Cornwall to stop the Dhows and then send in a boarding party in inflatable boats (RIBs). The waters are too shallow for the larger vessels to get really close to shore in any event. These boarding parties consist of a mix of lightly armed sailors and marines. There is also usually a female sailor in the party in case they need to search or question Muslim women. Usually a helicopter monitors the situation until the boarding party reports that the vessel is not hostile and not smuggling at which time it withdraws and the boarding party clears the ship to continue. They then climb back in their RIBs and return to the ship.

In this case, the Cornwall stopped an Indian Dhow, the boarding party, monitored by the ships helo went aboard, nothing unusual was detected, the boarding party cleared the Dhow, and reported they were returning to their RIBs. The Helo left station and the Boarding party began climbing back into their boats. However, as soon as the report was given and the Helo left its station, Iranian gunboats left their station and travelled at 40 knots to the Dhow arriving 3 minutes later as the boarding party was entering their boats. Given that they had heavy machine guns and AA cannons trained on them by Iranian sailors and were in the process of getting into inflatables (and possibly because they had a girly with them) the Boarding Party commander decided that discretion was the better part of valor and ordered the party to surrender. Given that they would have been cut to ribbons in seconds had they resisted and immediately started Gulf War III this was probably the right decision.

Did everyone get sloppy because this happened in the middle of several years of daily SOP without any warning? Absolutely. Does it point out that with Iran in the mix there is no such thing as "normal relations?" Yes.

Given that Brits are currently being killed by Iranian manufactured EFPs, acting like they are can be trusted at all is extremely silly. But to maintain that the Marines and Sailors committed some sort of breach of military ettiquette by not dying valiantly but senselessly and forcing a war with Iran is a bit over the top.
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Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2007, 11:39:29 PM »
well said Seagoon.

Offline Edbert

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« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2007, 09:27:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
But to maintain that the Marines and Sailors committed some sort of breach of military ettiquette by not dying valiantly but senselessly and forcing a war with Iran is a bit over the top.

Perhaps this was not directed at me, since I never said such a thing, but my points are completely in line with your post.

The details of the conflict are still secret, but it was mentioned here that the Marines were vastly out-powered, to the point of making any resistance suicidal. So we have a small contingent of Marines who are carrying only small arms. The Iranians show up with overwhelming force. Explain how the helicopter did not see them approach and take them out with some heavy ordinance, or how come there was no top cover, what about naval radar that could have seen such a large package crossing "the border" coming to intercept the hapless boarding party?

I only saw a few seconds of one video, and it could have been propoganda (not from the Iranians of course ), but it did not show a flotilla, it showed a small group of Iranians in very small boats carrying small arms. If there was such a large battle group that the poor marines had no chance then it was the fault of the RN that it was allowed to get TO the dhow.

Offline Hap

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« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2007, 10:36:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
So you admit that they were in fact caught in Iran?


Actually, "no."  

How would I know?  I wasn't there.

I found an article, if you google you can find it, that Britian's ROE bar their guys from fighting Iranians.  In the same piece, the author writes that American troops can if Iranians attack them.

I almost laughed, "So you ADMIT it was Miss Scarlet with the rope in the Conservatory!!!"

This to the mook in Wyoming.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2007, 12:44:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
I know this will sound odd, but more guys in our congregation speak Russian than Spanish, and Arabic would be the second most common language - those of you familiar with SF will understand. Personally, Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew are my "business" languages...


Think. in Russian
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty