Author Topic: Interesting Discussion of Islam  (Read 700 times)

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« on: April 05, 2007, 11:42:00 AM »
Hi Guys,

Thought some of you might be interested in the following, its an interview with Sam Solomon on the subject of Islam (and specifically its teachings and the differences between it and Christianity). Solomon was trained as Sharia Jurist (one of the religious judges who tries cases of religious infractions in Islamic countries, issues Fatwas) and Imam but who subsequently converted to Christianity and was forced to flee from his home country or lose his life.

Since that time Solomon has gone on to become an advisor on Islamic matters to Parliament in the UK and Congress in the US, as well as the author of the recent  "Proposed Charter of Muslim Understanding" for the European Parliament. Solomon is one of the most brilliant commentators on Islam I've heard from, and his knowledge of the Quran and Hadiths puts my own knowledge of the Bible to shame. During the interview he quotes Suras from the Quran from memory in Arabic and then translates them on the fly into English.

The interview itself took place on a Radio Show called the White Horse Inn which is a sort of Christian themed "All Things Considered" (which isn't surprising considering that Ken Myers who created All Things Considered and Morning Edition as well as his own venture Mars Hill Audio  was the inspiration for their format.)

Anyway, here are the two interviews:

Interview with Sam Solomon #1

Interview with Sam Solomon #2
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Halo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3222
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 12:21:42 PM »
Thanks, Seagoon.  I'll catch up to them later.  Much rather read transcripts than listen to interviews.  

Incidentally, have you read any of Lee Strobel's books interviewing various "experts" on Christianity, especially vis-a-vis scientific attitudes toward religion?
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty. (Anne Herbert, 1982, Sausalito, CA)
Paramedic to Perkaholics Anonymous

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 04:51:39 PM »
Halo,

Sorry, I don't know of any transcripts of the interview or I'd post them. It's a powerful interview though, and it particularly deals with a number of Western misconceptions about Islamic theology and its outworking in the world.

Here in the West we tend to view Islam through the grid of liberal Christian thinking about all religions. We blithely say "all religions are ultimately the same,  they all ultimately lead to the same god, and have the same teachings about ethics, same afterlife, same view of culture, etc." When we do that all we are really doing is revealing we don't really know or understand the very real differences between those religions and being patronizing to boot. Admittedly the best Western scholars on Islam, guys like Bernard Lewis don't do that, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Solomon is very good in particular at explaining to Christians the differences between Christianity and Islam regarding sin, salvation, forgiveness, heaven, ethics, etc.

EDIT: Whoops forgot about your question about Strobel. To date I've only read his "Inside the Mind of Unchurched Harry and Mary" but I understand he's come out with some excellent apologetics works for Laymen entitled "The Case for..." series (I'm guessing that's what you're talking about) Along those lines, I'm reading through an excellent book by Richard Bauckham a prof. at St. Andrews called Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony   it's good stuff but way too dry for popular consumption and clearly written for the academy not laymen.

- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 05:06:56 PM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 05:29:04 PM »
all religions are the same and they are all wrong. All religions have "rules" that they claim came from God/Allah/Zeus that you have to follow or something bad will happen to you.  The rules came from men not some god.

the Muslims kill each other because one group says the holy men should be descendents of Muhammad, the other group says they should elected or something.

the Christians are even worse, (they have had more time to mess up) how many different sects of Christians are there, i lost count. The eastern orthodox hate the roman catholics, the protestants hate each other and the catholics and orthodox and the catholics say the rest are going to hell. Wars have been fought over minor differences.

the early Christians could not even decide which books to put in the new testament, or if Jesus was equal to god or only the son of god ( a lesser position).

Offline detch01

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1788
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 07:20:36 PM »
An interesting listen. Thx SG.

Cheers,
asw
asw
Latrine Attendant, 1st class
semper in excretio, solum profundum variat

Offline Sundowner

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1005
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 10:13:55 PM »
Thanks, Seagoon.

I'm off to listen!

Regards,
Sun
Freedom implies risk. Less freedom implies more risk.

Offline Booz

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 10:27:57 PM »
Magic is magic

Offline NOT

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 789
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 10:43:53 PM »
Halo, ive read Stroebels"The Case For......" books. They are very good reads. I recommend themm if you have not already read them.




NOT



AKNOT

Offline Halo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3222
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 10:58:20 PM »
Thanks, NOT.  I've finished The Case for Faith, am halfway through The Case for a Creator, and then will try The Case for Christ.

Interesting approach, interviewing select "experts" on key religious questions.  So far I'm seeing quite a bit of deference to the select sources, whose language inevitably reminds me of priestly insider speak which lay people can never quite penetrate.  

They'll mock opposing views, then assert something that makes me :eek:

The leap into faith requires a kangaroo; so far I am only a rabbit.  But I used to be a frog.  Hop springs eternal.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty. (Anne Herbert, 1982, Sausalito, CA)
Paramedic to Perkaholics Anonymous

Offline NOT

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 789
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2007, 12:44:21 AM »
I like Stroebels approach.




NOT



AKNOT

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2007, 01:35:56 AM »
Hi John,


I'm up with a teething baby (fun, fun, fun) and I'd realllllllly like to be asleep... so my apologies if this reply is less coherent than it should be...

Quote
Originally posted by john9001
all religions are the same and they are all wrong. All religions have "rules" that they claim came from God/Allah/Zeus that you have to follow or something bad will happen to you.  The rules came from men not some god.

the Muslims kill each other because one group says the holy men should be descendents of Muhammad, the other group says they should elected or something.

the Christians are even worse, (they have had more time to mess up) how many different sects of Christians are there, i lost count. The eastern orthodox hate the roman catholics, the protestants hate each other and the catholics and orthodox and the catholics say the rest are going to hell. Wars have been fought over minor differences.

the early Christians could not even decide which books to put in the new testament, or if Jesus was equal to god or only the son of god ( a lesser position).


Just a few points in response:

To make a blanket statement like your initial one with 100% certainty you would need to be god yourself, which I'm guessing you're not.

The worldview you appear to be espousing is called materialism. It states confidently that matter is all there is, was, and ever will be, that the Universe is a closed system. There is no God in this system so he cannot interfere with his creation, hence miracles or even providence are impossible, and since he does not exist to communicate with people, revelation from him is impossible. In this system life is an utterly meaningless, ethics are baseless, and to paraphrase Nagel, existence is a brief blip between two oblivions. I'm also guessing you've never really run this worldview to its logical conclusions and are happily living with a bunch of inconsistencies.

Personally, even at the most anti-theistic point, I never gave much serious thought to embracing Materialism (or its related philosophies). Today it seems even more absurd to me than ever. Aside from its logical problems, I've just seen and personally experienced too many examples of Divine intervention to give it much thought.

You also appear to be using a hermeneutic of absolute suspicion, based on your presupposition that "all religions are false because none can be true."

Now if I came on the board and responded to all the political threads by saying "all political perspectives are wrong" because they have caused conflict and division and further that because SOME politicians have done evil things and are corrupt, ALL politicians including Washington, Lincoln, Gandhi, Churchill have been evil and corrupt I sense you'd see the obvious flaws in my reasoning.

As far as your comments about actual religions. There are many more conflicts in Islam than just the one between the Shias and Sunnis, but that one stems from the Shi 'ite belief that Ali, the cousin of the prophet should have been the next Caliph instead of his Uncle Abu Bakr, etc.

And contrary to Da Vinci Code pseudo history, actually the Christians were fairly well decided on which books were part of the canon long before the council of Nicea met in 325 to attempt to decide the conflict between the Arians and the orthodox. For instance by the end of the 2nd century we have several lists and references by church fathers that include all 27 of the books of the NT and which do not include the so-called Gnostic gospels (actually the arguing in the church was not over whether the Gnostic works were canonical, it was over the apocryphal works like The Shepherd of Hermas).

Anyway John, judge a religion based upon its truth claims and the life and teachings of its founders and the best and most consistent practioners of it not the worst. So for instance, judge Christianity by Jesus and the Apostles and Islam by Muhammad and the first Caliphs.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Halo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3222
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2007, 07:29:15 AM »
(quote) I like Stroebels approach. (unquote)

So do I.  I like his quest and method, which is much like Stud Terkel's book Working, i.e., get a theme and let the people do the talking.  Stroebel is more dialogue, and I admire his guts in raising complicated issues with experts.  

Not likely he is ever going to change any of the experts or come away with  contrary viewpoints anything more than straw men.    

So far Strobel's books remind me of a scholasticism course I took in college to broaden my horizons.  Everything was built on an elaborate foundation of successive tenets.  

I got to around step 3 of 40 or so before raising my hand Strobel-like and seeking clarification.  My hand and questions went up a lot more times after that too.  I think in the interests of ecumenical harmony, the professor gave me a C.

My favorite professor was devout and called himself a Christian agnostic, i.e., he believed in Christian principles but was always searching for more truths and could not believe all aspects of more traditional doctrines.  That about describes me too.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty. (Anne Herbert, 1982, Sausalito, CA)
Paramedic to Perkaholics Anonymous

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2007, 07:49:36 AM »
seagoon , i never said there was no god, i said that "religion's" views of what god is and what the rules are was not right.

Offline Mightytboy

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 176
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2007, 08:08:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
seagoon , i never said there was no god, i said that "religion's" views of what god is and what the rules are was not right.


This I agree with.

It's like watching the news. Some networks stretch the truth or slant it to match their views while others flat out lie.

How is religion different?


I have faith but I don't have faith in religion.

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Interesting Discussion of Islam
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2007, 09:32:37 AM »
Hi John,

Quote
Originally posted by john9001
seagoon , i never said there was no god, i said that "religion's" views of what god is and what the rules are was not right.


My mistake then. Without clarification some forms of Deism can initially sound a lot like Materialism. I'll try not to jump to any more conclusions. So let's reason together if we can.

So are you saying:

a) that you believe there is a God, but that he is not personal, he is transcendent and unknowable and that he created the universe but does not interact with it and therefore revelation is not possible.

or

b) that there is a God, that he is personal and knowable but that you know that he has never actually revealed himself or his will to men but they pretend he did: i.e. " All religions have "rules" that they claim came from God/Allah/Zeus... The rules came from men not some god."

or

c) there is a personal and knowable god and that he has personally contacted john9001 alone to tell him that all religions have got him wrong and that none of the claimed revealtions from him to date are right.

or

d) Seagoon was wrong about John9001 not being omniscient.

or something else entirely?

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams