The Two circle fight....

[humble]

One thing that I've noticed flying the A-20 is the validity of the two circle fight as a tactic. Most of the fights we have are essentially one circle fights...from the merge things evolve into a tailchase with both planes traveling in the same direction. The A-20 simply wont get around all the time. I've found myself in a number of fights where the situation dictates a two circle approach. I've got a few films where it works and a few that actually lead to collisions since I cant get out of the way...

Looks like the traffic exceeded the band width so I'll wait a day or two post a few. Seperate from the A20 the two circle fight is a great tactic to have....it can turn a losing situation into a winning hand. The fight your losing in a one circle can be easily converted to your advantage if the other guy isnt well versed in the difference.

[fuzeman]

This reminded me of a writeup I did awhile back. Just trying to help explain it and not hijack the topic.

When two pilots engage they will turn in the same or opposite directions at the merge. They both make a left or right turn or one turns right and the other left. This sets up two types of turns or two different dogfights. We will use the horizontal plane for these examples and discuss vertical concerns if there are any. As the two merge if both pilots turn in the same direction this sets up a nose to tail or two circle engagement. This would look like a #8 where the planes enter at the middle and one flies the top of the 8 and the other the bottom making the two circles and the pilot has his plane's nose pointing at the other's tail, hence the Nose to Tail or N2T. If one pilot turns right and the other pilot turns left this sets up a nose to nose or one circle engagement. This would look like a zero where the planes enter at the same point but fly in opposite directions making the single circle and the pilot's have their noses pointed at each other, so you have a Nose to Nose or N2N fight. Various factors go into the decision to turn left or right in this type of merge. The left or right turns can be considered towards or away from the target also. A few differences in these engagements should be covered. The area of the fight is usually larger in N2T fights than it is in N2N ones because each plane is flying a seperate circle in N2T where they are flying the same circle in N2N basically. A N2N fight would help keep a smaller or less visable target insight. Of course the AH2 icon system negates this factor to a degree. In N2T merges there is usually no blind period and you can maintain sight of the target. In the situation where they make opposite turns, the pilot who turns away from the other in the N2N fight does loose sight of the target for a short time

Again we'll discuss horizontal maneuvering first with a close forward quarter pass as the initial setup.
In a N2T fight, where both turn the same direction, if turn rates are equal both planes meet again and turn radius has no real effect. Each plane complete its circle at the same time no matter the size of their circle. If turn radius is the same the plane with the better turn rate will complete his turn sooner and get an advantage. So in N2T fights turn rate is more a factor than turn radius when there is minimal flight path seperation. As flight path seperation increases at the merge turn radius becomes a larger factor. This can be an advantage for the pilot with a turn radius advantage if he gets some inplane, horizontal flight path sepetation and employs a lead turn.

In a N2N fight, where they turn in opposite directions right and left, if turn radius is the same the two planes meet again and turn rate would have no effect on the second merge. Turn rate would only effect if they met directly opposite their entry point, before or after it. Turn radius on the other hand has a definate effect and the plane with a smaller turn radius has an advantage. As flight path seperation increases turn rate becomes a larger factor. The pilot turning away gives up any inplane, horizontal flight path seperation but a small amount of out of plane, vertical flight path seperation will minimize his blind period and is good to have. The N2N in the vertical can be dangerous for the pilot with turn radius advantage. If he doesn't get his initial shot and make it count the other plane may have enough energy to zoom above and reverse creating a gunshot oppertunity on his way down.

[humble]

Your not hijacking anything at all, it's probably one of the less dicussed elements of ACM. Normally we have a scenerio where the "nose to nose" remerge leads to a quick series of moves that establishes a "winner and loser" with regard to the angular battle....in effect someone gaines the 3/9 line and then the fight goes from there.

Its often possible at a specific moment to deny that angular gain by turning back into the con in such a way to recreate the upper diagram. I have a a20 vs seafire and A20 vs hog clip where I get caught unable to reverse quickly enough so I'm literally forced into a two circle fight.

It's one of those tactics that can work wonders if you use it at the right time.....

[bozon]

I think the idea of the 2 circle fight is to create seperation. In this case the plane with the better turn rate, regardless of radius, has the advantage. I guess this is a good option for a plane comming too fast and wants to go for angles instead of an energy fight.

In a one circle fight, comming in too fast and yanking on the stick gets you killed.

[Mace2004]

You guys are right, the one-circle/two-circle subject is rarely discussed and that's an excellent write-up on it fuzeman.  My only comment on it is the use of Nose to Tail or Nose to Nose terminology.  When I hear nose-to-tail I always this of Nose to Tail Separation, not direction of turn.  I think sticking with just one or two circle fight is a little less confusing, although many people do have a problem recognizing what's actually happening in flight.  

I think the key to your choice of direction of turn is related to a couple of factors, relative corner velocities being the most important.  Say you're in a fast plane with a corner velocity of 280mph vs an adversary with a corner at 220mph.  The slower plane will out radius you quickly in a one-circle fight and staying near your 280mph corner velocity will do nothing but cause you to arc in front of him giving him the lead-turn option at each pass as he consistently works inside of you.  By going two-circle you can maximize your turn rate by staying fast and gain greater separation then in a one-circle fight which gives you the opportunity for a slight high yo-yo when you're across the circle from your opponent followed by a slight low yo-yo as you come back.  This combination will let you use the vertical to minimize your radius while maintaining e.  My gameplan would be to make one or two merges staying at corner and watch my opponent.  If he starts making significant angles at each merge that tells me he's selling his e.  Once he's done that and has bled some then on my next circle I'll still do a high yo-yo but follow that with a little bit deeper low yo-yo.  This gives me a little more e but sets my opponent up for a nose low merge while I'm comeing up nose high.  Since I have the e and he doesn't this is where I'd zoom pure vertical and turn the fight into a vertical one with good e differential.

Also, another significant consideration when choosing between a one or two-circle fight is your roll rate.  Say you're in a Typhoon against an airplane with better roll rates (that's just about any of the other fighters).  Roll rate has a very significant effect on any reversal you need in order to force a two-circle fight.  If your opponent rolls significantly better he can easily deny you the two-circle by simply reversing quickly.  Also, the time you take to reverse (if you need to in order to force the two-circle) is time that you're not turning giving an additional advantage to your opponent.  To maximize your ability to force a two-circle you want to avoid having to reverse and the best way to do this would be to go for lateral separation before the initial merge.  This will virtually guarantee a two-circle fight, at least until the second merge.  If you must reverse, do it as quickly as possible. Unload, slap in full lateral stick and use rudder to get the quickest reversal most planes.

Last, the two-circle fight also favors the aircraft with the best firepower.  You'll have less merges (in the same period of time) but sufficient separation that makes it easier to get good forward quarter snapshots at each merge.

[fuzeman]

Originally posted by Mace2004
You guys are right, the one-circle/two-circle subject is rarely discussed and that's an excellent write-up on it fuzeman.  My only comment on it is the use of Nose to Tail or Nose to Nose terminology.  When I hear nose-to-tail I always this of Nose to Tail Separation, not direction of turn.  I think sticking with just one or two circle fight is a little less confusing, although many people do have a problem recognizing what's actually happening in flight.  

Mace, that's exactly what the rest of the Trainers said when I wrote this up as it was written when I was still a member.
I was just too lazy between then and now to edit it to reflect the confusing terminology.