Give Radar to Axis

[Kermit de frog]

Would giving dot dar to the germans help?  Seems to be hard for scouts to cover everything.  Allies get to mass up and strike but axis are spread thin and not enough warning for coastal defenses.

Give dot dar two both sides if you have too.

[Krusty]

I was surprised to see 2 fw 190 scouts almost to a16 at 20k+ just past T+7 minutes... They were hauling arse, too. I thought no fighters could up til t=0???

[Kurt]

If the fight made any sense at all (from a radar perspective) both sides would have Darbar (not dots) out to 25 miles from their own coast lines.

In reality the British system was good to about 75 miles, and the Germans to around 50(more likely 25) (at spotting masses, not specific planes).
(Radar range and accuracy changed fast in these days, so don't jump me if my numbers don't match yours... six months changed things BIG).


But, tradition in the FSO says radar off..

I think Darbar only would be more realistic in many scenarios.  Especially along the channel where flights really didn't arrive my surprise starting in 1939.

British fighters were certainly scrambled towards flights of 10 to 20 at 10k to 15k feet all the time...

Or flights of 30 to 50... etc... No specifics... just radar blobs... Like our dar bars.

beyond radar... On some clear days fighters reported seeing enemy fighters visually climbing from bases on the other side of the channel... Its only 30 miles.

[ELD66]

Krusty,
There was not any Axis plane up until T+0. The specially designated scouts were allowed which ever load out of weapons/ fuel that they chose to increase there speed in finding the allied air craft.
-ElD66 Frame 2 CiC

[CptA]

Nightmares were the scouts you saw.

We lifted at T+0 from A46 and sent  scouts to sectors 12,10 and 13,11 with orders to stay low, get there fast, and stay just outside of Radar range.

While the scouts went North and West, most of us grabbed S.East.

The scouts immediately started reporting Spitfires in singles and pairs followed by larger groups of other planes. Soon there were reports of Mosquitos low along the coastline as well.

What surprised us however, was how soon the A37 Radar was setoff. It had us wondering what kind of plane had the speed to get there so fast.

We surmised that some bombers had probably come in low.

Soon, the singles and pairs of Spitfire Vs were setting off the Radar all along the coast, probably as part of the Allied deception plan to hide the true plan of attack. When they were encountered, we assigned pairs of FW190A5s to attack the single Spits.

By now, our scouts are reporting small flights of B-24s at 12,10,2 - 12,10,5 Heading S.East, and they continued to shadow them as far as possible.

We vectored South and continued to grab while waiting for the main body of enemy bombers and their escorts to arrive.  

Around sector 14,8 one of our flights engaged a light escort of Spit IXs, and then we started on the B-24s.  We continued a running fight through sectors 15,8 and 16,8 until they were destroyed. But some still managed to drop their bombs on the Flak Factory before they went down.

Our flights re-armed at A71 and lifted just in time for reports of B-26s near the Flak Factory at 15k. We were joined by some BF110G2s, and together we engaged the B-26s.

to the Allies...a good plan, but you could have used more escorts.

CptA

[Odee]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Would giving dot dar to the germans help?  Seems to be hard for scouts to cover everything.  Allies get to mass up and strike but axis are spread thin and not enough warning for coastal defenses.

Give dot dar two both sides if you have too.

Not only "no!" but HECK NO!  Youse guys already got "ze Uber Allis planes, mit ze body piles undt royal altitude-ge-jumpin-bouncin us..."  Why spoil a good thing by asking for Dar?

Have your pilots get their heads outside the pit and do some banking once in a while...  It's what us Brits have do, so youse Krauts -who are far superior to all-should be better without Dar...  

Hey, I think I struck on something here!   In the interests of historical political and socio-historical perspectives of nations, let's not give the Axis any Dar at all.

Uhm, never mind me today... Meds kicking in soon.

too funny man... too funny

[shreck]

I dont think dar is very realistic! cause individual planes had NO means to access the radar info. Interseptors were vectored to target by ground command! So each of us having dar is not the answer. But our command having some Dar info and directing squad leaders may help in this circumstance!:aok

[Eagle327]

To enhance reality,  perhaps "Radar Controllers" on the ground as in the old Battle-of-Britian scenario of years past.  They relayed contact info via text and vox as in real life.

Salute
Eagle

[TracerX]

Originally posted by shreck
I dont think dar is very realistic! cause individual planes had NO means to access the radar info. Interseptors were vectored to target by ground command! So each of us having dar is not the answer. But our command having some Dar info and directing squad leaders may help in this circumstance!:aok

A solution might be to enable radar in the towers.  Tower radar would allow radar operators to direct their squads to the important areas of the conflict, yet keep the actual pilots from seeing the enemy contacts while in flight.

If nothing else, it might be a good experiment.  I think the S3 event uses this method of radar operation.

[Drano]

I'd disagree with having DAR in these events.

If you consider these events are designed to create conflict in a known area within a known period of time, all that's needed is a little brain work to figure just where the other guys might be. After all, we all know what targets need to be attacked and/or defended and we all know what bases are available to both sides all beforehand.

Of course then there's some guy that plans something in the friggin hinterlands where you'd never look throwing a monkey wrench into everything.

Drano

[TracerX]

Drano has a point, half the fun is finding the fight, then hanging on to your head till the ride is over.  

[Dantoo]

DAR in FSO generally speaking - No.  It would take away most of the immersive qualities of the event.  It would stink.

However:

To enhance reality, perhaps "Radar Controllers" on the ground as in the old Battle-of-Britian scenario of years past.

This last BoB threw up a problem in this area.  There was a lack of controllers and apparently real problems of integrating this powerful tool into operations.  I don't know really, I was on the other side. (I originally offered to be a BoB controller but the Allied side was over-subscribed or somesuch.  Happened the time before that too.)

I have a proposal that may work to the benefit of future BoB scenarios.  Every now and then, we could have an FSO where ground based control could be a feature of perhaps a single frame.

It would operate exactly the same as BoB except on much more limited scale.
Radar control could be given in a single defined sector on a single frequency.  Aircraft operating in that area would have to tune to the frequency to get a service.   This would greatly increase the awareness of the concept.  It would add immensely to future scenarios.

I have some experience in the real environment.  I would be willing to test the concept, develop and train people for the basic skills if you're interested.

[Drano]

I'd be willing to try a radar controller's position in an event someday. I thought the setup in that BoB for that role looked pretty cool and would again add to the immersion factor.

Thought we could run a night mission someday with night fighters vs the RAF bomber stream using radar controllers a'la Len Deighton's "Bomber". Of course we might have to wait until April 31st for a Ju-88G too.

But that setup work out with a vastly lopsided allied side as there were a lot more bombers than night fighters and radar controllers. It might end up with a lot of guys with inactive patrol sectors flying around for a couple of boring hours tho. Like that didn't really happen tho.

Drano

[Lunger]

Its not like that never happens in FSO 75% of my time spent scouting in FSO has been spet all alone in the wild blue yonder. This instance also lends a historical aspect. I'd venture to say that not every hour of flight was spent Knee deep in enemy fighters. The more realistic the fight is contact or not the more fun the game is for me.