Author Topic: Tiger perks (Read 3007 times)

E25280 · « **Reply #60 on:** April 17, 2007, 12:43:46 PM »

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Originally posted by Wobblin-Goblin
I've played a fair amount of 8 man GV lately and can honestly say the Firefly Sherman is harder to crack than I would have figured. No empirical evidence, just a seat of the pants observation. It is obviously easier to take out by flanking and popping the sides, but the frontal armor seems more tough than it should be.

Not to pick on you particularly, but a lot of people here keep saying they "feel" or "believe" the Sherman is too tough.

Pyro and HTC are using real life data.

Reputation vs. reality.

Reputation of the Sherman was that it was poorly armored. The reality is that the armor was better than advertised. It wasn't "great", but it wasn't as paper-thin as many would have you believe.

Before saying the armor of this or that tank is too tough, I would say the Tiger's gun seems a bit weaker than before. On a couple occasions I have had hit sprites on panzers at close range from my Tiger (4-800), and they continued merrily on their way. Pre-2.10, they would have been instant toast. But, that could have just as much with the refinement of the damage model as any tweaking of the 88 -- just need to learn where to aim rather than the old situation where a hit was almost always a kill regardless of placement.

I have not noticed similar "weakening" (if there is any) of the Panzer or T-34, but I tend to aim more carefully with those, so my latter comment is the more likely true one.

E25280 · « **Reply #61 on:** April 17, 2007, 12:47:13 PM »

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Originally posted by Sweet2th
Not many choices? Not enough info?Not enough Data?

I would imagine not enough time . . . skinning, balistics modeling, etc. all different despite the similar chassis. I, for one, am happy to have a new tank. If more come later . . . well, lets just say

.

Wobblin-Goblin · « **Reply #62 on:** April 17, 2007, 01:30:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by E25280
Not to pick on you particularly, but a lot of people here keep saying they "feel" or "believe" the Sherman is too tough.

Pyro and HTC are using real life data.

Reputation vs. reality.

Reputation of the Sherman was that it was poorly armored. The reality is that the armor was better than advertised. It wasn't "great", but it wasn't as paper-thin as many would have you believe.

All I can say is that before the 2.10, a hit by a Tiger, a single hit, would cause the recipient (T-34, Panzer IV, etc) to make an unscheduled trip back to the hangar. Now, with the addition of the Firefly Sherman, a single hit by a Tiger generally won't stop the Sherman if the hit is in the frontal armor. This seems to be in direct conflict with the material I've read about Shermans. Even with the updated gun, the British Firefly Sherman wasn't any better at stopping incoming rounds than the American Sherman with the wimpy 75mm gun. The Firefly just had a competent gun whereas the American Sherman didn't.

This is not reflected in the gameplay I've experienced since 2.10. BTW, I think 2.10 is much better all-around than 2.09 patch (whatever).

Oleg · « **Reply #63 on:** April 17, 2007, 01:52:18 PM »

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Originally posted by Pyro
I've done a lot of different armor tests and have not found anything to make me think this is a tough tank to kill.

Take a look to my film, please. I hit Firefly 4 times in front hull with HVAP ammo (all penetrated) before he was dead finally. May be i shoot in wrong place?

t34_vs_M4

Larry · « **Reply #64 on:** April 17, 2007, 02:06:40 PM »

Do you see that dark spot to the upper left where you were hiting thats where I aim and get one shot kills but I also drive pnzrs not T34s. Dont know if the HVAPs work like pnzr APs.

715 · « **Reply #65 on:** April 17, 2007, 11:06:19 PM »

I can kill Shermans with the T34 HVAP, at point blank range, by hitting the vertical part of the curved lower hull frontal armor. Hitting the sloped part is useless. One hit to the curved part, if centered and reasonably perpendicular, will kill the Sherman.

Other soft spots for single hit kills at short range: the rear and the top side of the hull. (To do that you obviously have to be behind or to the side, not somewhere easy to get to and live.) The turret is immune to T34s, I no longer waste time aiming at them.

At long range, >1000 say, give up. It might as well be a Tiger. You might get lucky and penetrate the armor but it's going to take many hits to kill and one shell from the Sherman will vaporize you.

How I long for a T34-85.

humble · « **Reply #66 on:** April 18, 2007, 01:25:05 AM »

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Originally posted by Pyro
The Tiger's perk value did go down by 40% as soon as the new version was out.

I expect that the Firefly will become a low level perk. I would have introduced it that way if it came out with the 75mm and 76mm Shermans but this is all we had.

I've been looking into reports about how tough Shermans and I don't see it. I've done a lot of different armor tests and have not found anything to make me think this is a tough tank to kill.

I upped a PZIV to check out the smoke vs the M4 (absolutely the same effect). I killed every M4 I hit with 1 shot at ranges from 800-1600 on all aspects.

Muskie6 · « **Reply #67 on:** April 18, 2007, 09:00:28 AM »

I had hoped from the beginning that we would have a light perk (5-10) on the FF. I think the performance warrants the perk. I would hope that this will limit the use of the FF, and give us the variety of GV's back on the battlefield. Currently you see 95% FF's.

Along with this, hopefully this will open the door for the 75mm M4. I would like to see the M4 (75mm) vs. the PanzerIV. This might also bring in the T34/85 as an equal combatant to the FF.

Pyro · « **Reply #68 on:** April 18, 2007, 10:02:45 AM »

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Originally posted by Oleg
Take a look to my film, please. I hit Firefly 4 times in front hull with HVAP ammo (all penetrated) before he was dead finally. May be i shoot in wrong place?

t34_vs_M4

The first shot went through the track only. Still, I don't think what you are showing is so much a Sherman issue but rather an issue with the new T-34 ammo. I significantly reduced the lethality of the new round compared to the standard round and that I think was a mistake. I do plan on changing that in the next patch.

In testing, the only interesting things that I've found is that the frontal armor is really helped out a lot by that slope and that the turret is pretty rounded so its easy for your turret shots to hit at highly oblique angles. But the hull is such a better target anyway.

To the question of why no other Sherman variants in this version. The reason is simply a lack of time. We had to shoehorn the Firefly just to get it in. I'm trying to work it out to go back and make a single pass to add a number of missing vehicle variants to the game. We could add a lot of vehicles really quick that way.

Oleg · « **Reply #69 on:** April 18, 2007, 10:59:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pyro
The first shot went through the track only. Still, I don't think what you are showing is so much a Sherman issue but rather an issue with the new T-34 ammo. I significantly reduced the lethality of the new round compared to the standard round and that I think was a mistake. I do plan on changing that in the next patch.

Thank you for explanation. I should try panzer against M4, probably.
You are right about first hit, of course, dunno why i didnt notice it before.

Anyway, i still thinking firefly is too good for free vehicle. If you want to give him low perk cost, like you said before, its ok. But if you decides to leave it free, weaken armor would be good compromise, imho (even if it will against history).

Larry · « **Reply #70 on:** April 18, 2007, 11:25:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pyro
The first shot went through the track only. Still, I don't think what you are showing is so much a Sherman issue but rather an issue with the new T-34 ammo. I significantly reduced the lethality of the new round compared to the standard round and that I think was a mistake. I do plan on changing that in the next patch.

In testing, the only interesting things that I've found is that the frontal armor is really helped out a lot by that slope and that the turret is pretty rounded so its easy for your turret shots to hit at highly oblique angles. But the hull is such a better target anyway.

To the question of why no other Sherman variants in this version. The reason is simply a lack of time. We had to shoehorn the Firefly just to get it in. I'm trying to work it out to go back and make a single pass to add a number of missing vehicle variants to the game. We could add a lot of vehicles really quick that way.

How much would the bribe be for a Jagdpanzer IV and Jagdpanzer V or a Panther and King Tiger.

VansCrew1 · « **Reply #71 on:** April 18, 2007, 12:17:12 PM »

tigers have been cheaper, they run about 30-40 perks or less,it's dose not matter anyway's the M4 can kill a tiger in 1 shot, the only times I take out tigers now is when their is a cv off shore and a take a tiger for LTV's,the Sherman is the next tiger. lol, I have not taken a tiger out in TT for 5 days and I'm up to 1000 perks. i started out with less then 100, the M4 is uber, easy getting kills in it and perks with it are not bad.

all

~VansCrew~