DA and ATTACKING BUFFS

[CAP1]

hey all,
couple of different questions here.

1) i was just watching a couple of films of bomber attacks..mostly because i've been tryin to get better at it...1 was on JU's, and the other was on 17's. on both films i noticed that on several passes, my nose was blatently pointed at one of the drones, ans my angle, and flightpath in no way could've put any rounds on or near the lead plane. but what i saw when watching the film from external view, was identical hits scoring on the lead plane as were scoring on the one i was targeting. is this normal? i mean....does the host computer simply "assign" damage to all 3 planes in the flight depending on your attack? on both instances, i was attacking from approx. 8 high , and diving at the target plane(drone) in such a way that if anything i'd go behind and under him at hi speed. any rounds that missed him i think would simply have passed behind the lead plane.

2) went into DA last night...was my first time there. in EW, i'm a hurri dweeb, sometimes a 110 driver, and if i'm feeling REALLY dweebish(no insult intended to anyone at all..joking) i fly the spit5......MW hurri 110 or 38j. in DA, i was dueling/practicing with some squadies, and started off in the hurri2c. well........squadie was in spit5, we merged, turned a few times, and he got my 6, next i knew we were on the deck. knowing tha hurri can out-turn the spit, i tried to drag him into a scissors. problem was, that i use rudder a LOT when i'm rolling the plane, and this works beautifully in MA.....here.......almost instant and violent spin, from which i barley recovered. the end result was he kicked my but aftr that. in subsequent fights, i noticed earlier, motre intense stalling charastics than i feel in MA, in hurri, spit5, and the 38j(which was giving me stall buzzer at 275 KIAS in a 3G turn). so the question.......is the aircraft performance different somehow in DA? or has anyone else noticed anything like this?
this isn't a complaint......just wondering if i've lost me mind yet:noid

thanks guys n gals!!!:aok

[B@tfinkV]

hey CAP, see if i can help.


1) its a bug in the film viewer as best as i know. hits on drones are mirrored on lead but with no damage. happens to everyone.


2) in the DA make sure you are at a low base. at the 15k bases the ground level is around 10k above sea level, so even though it looks like youre on the deck you are infact fighting in very thin air.

A20-a21 and A23-A24 are 2k bases with ground level @1k above sea level, these are perfect for 'on the deck' furballing or dueling similar to that in the main arena.

[BaldEagl]

Damage to the buffs should happen just as you target it.  I usually go for the left drone first trying to take the end of a wing off, then the lead buff trying to flame an engine, both on the first pass.

The only explanation is if you were'nt coming straight in, but from an angle, you might have hit one first, then the other or more likely if your convergence is set short and your shooting long the spread may be hitting two of the buffs at the same time (you're shooting from beyond your convergence point and your bullets are spreading back out).  If buff hunting you should pull convergence out to maximum.

No idea on the DA, I never really go there.

[EDIT] Looks like Bat had a more reasonable explanation as I typed this.

[CAP1]

good point on convergence.......attacking the JU's i was flying hurri2c......convergence i didn't think to change, and was left where i fight at, which is 450(250 was suggested to me, but i couldn't hit anything, even within 300 yds.) attacking the 17's i was flying a 38j, which had convergence set out to 650(i keep all nose firing planes to 650). in the hurri, i use very short bursts at no more than 600 when doing the attack i described in the other post. if i try to kill the pilot, and do the 12 hi attack, i start "bursting out at 600 to 800.(seeing as we're closing very fast obviously).
 in the 38, i start shooting closer to 1k when attacking from the rear like that, as i normally have a much faster closure rate. when i've done the 12 hi attack on the 17, in the 38, i actually fired a couple bursts at 1.5, and registered a few hits(although i was again trying to kill the pilot, i hit the fuselage amidships), but was surprised to see the hits...they were more of a guage sorta......

oo...and i aplologize for the length of my posts....i figure the more info i give on what i'm doing, the better you all can help  or offer advise, or simply mock me:lol (as some like to come to EW to do)

anyway..thanks eagle, and batfink for the quick answers!!

[mtnman]

I personally doubt that your convergence setting is affecting whether or not you hit more than one drone at a time, unless your are attacking from the side, and at a low angle.  I'd put more faith in Batfink's explanation of the film viewer bug.  

I set my convergence to 275 in the corsairs, which are really the only planes I use.  The corsair is a large plane compared to many of the fighters in AH, and the wingspan is large (41 ft).  The guns are mounted outside of the 13'4" propeller arc, and I would guess that means they are spread further apart than most.  I'm guessing from my pictures that the spread between the guns is 15-16 feet.  Even if it were shown that this is only average, it doesn't matter, it still shows my following point.

For simple math, lets assume a 300yd convergence.  If guns are set 15 feet apart, and set to converge at 300yds, the bullets will spread back out after 300yds, to be back at their 15ft starting spread again at 600yd.  At 900 yds, the spread would be only about 30ft, and won't hit 45ft spread until 1200yds.  Remembering that the corsair has a 41ft wingspan, which is small compared to a B17, we see that at 1200 yds we are still only about as spread as the wingspan of the corsair.  (This is not exact distance and spread, but it's as close as I can get without pulling out my calculator, ruler, and writing implement...)

I don't have the wingspan of the B17 handy, but at 100ft span, we don't have enough spread from diverging convergence until well over 2000yds to even approach the wingspan of one B17, let alone spread from one bomber across the space between and score hits on the second.  Even if it did, we can't expect much if any damage to occur.

Of course we need to remember that this is pretty basic simple math that doesn't include a mutitude of variable's that all work against a tight group and scoring hits on a neighboring bomber.  I could see it happening only from certain angles of attack, and at fairly close range, in particular when attacking from one side and the lead bomber and one of the drones appeared to overlap.

As a side note, I don't change convergence to hunt bombers.  I may increase my shot distance a little, but I still don't shoot from further than 600 (200 is my norm for fighters).  I attack from high and to one side, and can easily flame or explode a bomber in one pass.  The times I need more than 3 passes to kill a formation are very rare.  As a matter of fact, I don't even shoot at any one bomber for that long.  I stop shooting and do a bit of an evasive roll so I don't get shot myself.  I doubt it takes even a one second burst to do the job.  I aim for the cockpit, and then deviate to the right wingroot/engine if I need to.  

Back to the spreading bullets hitting other bombers, I've noticed that I never get assists on the other bombers in the formation I am shooting at if somebody else shoots them...

MtnMan

[lilprop]

I need to work on attacking bombers.

I seem to either come in too shallow where I'm not going to do much damage shooting at their 6 (not to mention getting chewed up by their guns).

Or over-compensate and blow through the formation way to hot, and generally don't allow myself much of a shot.

Could anyone post some videos?

[mtnman]

CAP1 and lilprop, you both mention getting more effective at killing buffs.  With all the dive bombing buffs, cv killers, etc, it's nice to have a sure-fire way to kill them-

IMO, bombers are best attacked from above or below.  From the sides is rough, you get some pings, but you're not likely to get a kill in one pass unless you get the cockpit.  HO works, but only for one pass, and is dangerous.  Dead six is nuts.  From the bottom means you are nose up and losing speed.  This will normally mean you end up on their six eventually, which as stated is nuts.  IMO, most folks attack bombers from the bottom or six.  That means buff pilots/gunners get most of their practice here, and are most comfortable shooting here.  That's bad from the fighter standpoint.

That leaves attacking from the top as the best choice.

The weakest spots on the bomber are the cockpit and wingroots/engine area.  Those are easiest to target and hit from the top.  Attacking from the top allows you to go back up-  this means you can retain some E, which is good.  Another point to consider is that if the gunner has no ability to see the ground as a reference, he is more likely to be at least somewhat disoriented, which will hopefully mess up his ability to lead you correctly.  If he is pointing his gun upward, he can't see the ground.  Attacking from the top means you have speed, which means he has to lead you a bit more, which he is unlikely to do.  In AH, 99.99999999999% of the shots fired miss behind the intended target (IMO).  Also, many of the bombers guns cannot point straight up, which means less bullets headed your way.

So you need to be above the bombers for best results.  I like to be 1.5k-2k above, with sufficient airspeed (250mph for my corsair).  Patience may be needed in setting up this position.  If you don't have the patience you'll die often, which is fine for some folks.  I won't teach you how to get killed by the buffs though...

I start directly above the bombers, and slightly in front.  My tail would be slightly in front of the bombers cockpit.  I roll inverted, and dive in.  I aim for a point in front of the bombers until close, because I want to be attacking from D400-D600, from a point where I can fire downward at about a 45 degree angle in to the cockpit.  If my position is off, I fire into the wingroot, or a wingtip if I've been drinking.  This will allow you to pull out of your dive at about 450mph, right through the formation, or very slightly below.  By slightly below, I mean sometimes I lose my vertical stabilizer by scraping it along the bombers belly.  If you go below the bombers before nosing back up you are blowing E.  Use your throttle and rudder to control your speed.  Too fast is bad.  Too slow is worse.  If you dive at the bombers, or especially at their tail, you will be firing from behind, which will get you killed.  Go for the cockpit.

After your pass, one of the bombers will be on fire or dead.  You should be headed in the same direction as the bombers, and going back up.  Don't go straight back up yet.  Angle upward at about a 30-40 degree angle until out of range of the guns, and then go almost verticle.  Your goal is to do a loop, with about 150mph airspeed 1.5-2k above the bombers, and be able to dive in exactly as you did before.  This means your loop should be in front of the bombers, not overhead, or else you will be diving in on their six for your next attack.

I often time my loop so that a burning bomber will explode before I am close enough to fire on my second pass.  This leaves the formation even more helpless.

It is somewhat important to target the correct buff in the formation.  Don't start with the lead bomber.  He's the one actually aiming at you, and will be the most accurate.  The drones are aimed based off of him, and are really only converging at the same aiming point for a brief moment in your pass.  Targeting a drone is safest.  Also, if the buffs are driven by a new player, he may not bail out, which gives you the warping drones thing until he hits the ground.  Targeting a drone first and second eliminates that.  Save the lead bomber for last.

Targeting the right drone first is best.  If you target the left drone first, when he dies the right drone will move into his position which makes for a more difficult pass on a moving target.  So the order is- right drone, left drone, lead bomber.

A few fine points-  

You may need to adjust the top of your loop so that you don't end up on the bombers six for your third pass.  You will be losing E, and getting slower.  If you do a loop, you may end up behind the bomber on the third pass. If so, you may need to roll 90-180 degrees on the way up after your second pass.  This makes it more of a giant barrel roll or other manuever than an actual loop.

Also, often on the way down in my dive, since I'm diving for a point in front of the bombers, I can't see them due to my cowling.  I roll a little left/right, or in effect do a slow spiral on my dive to keep tabs of my target.  I just make sure that my flight attitude is where it should be when I'm ready to fire.  This is also how peregrine falcons manuever in their stoops.

That rolling dive is also important when dealing with the buff drivers like 999000 and Tatertot.  If you dive in nice and smooth they will still kill you.  The rolling foils most gunners.  Timing on preparing for your shot is a little difficult, but you'll get it eventually.  An added benefit is that this manuever will give you speed-control options.  It is better to need to slow down a bit than to be too slow.

The way for bomber pilots to counter this move is to fly directly below the cloud layer.  This is the safest place to be, as it limits the ability of the fighter pilot to see them.  It is very hard to pull off the diving spiral against those bombers.  Killing the low bombers is a piece of cake though.

I'm not really one for stating my accomplishments, but I will here as it shows the effectiveness of this bomber-killing method.  A few months ago Saber and I checked our stats in detail to see where we were having the most difficulty(which planes killed us the most).  This check showed that for that month I had a 98/1 K/D against bombers.  The one bomber that killed me was a C47, lol.  This is a very effective tactic once learned.

MtnMan

[lilprop]

Thanks for the pointers.  I'm going to have to get some practice in.

[CAP1]

mtnman, THAT has to be the absolute best, most precise explanation/description i've ever read. and i thank you sir for that. that sounds much easire than doing the swooping types of attacks that i was trying. much faster too, as it took me almost 15 minutes to kill the 17's i mentioned.

 on a note in the DA.......some had informed me that certian fields in DA are hi alt fields.  well...guess where we were fighting? field alt was15k, and we were climbing to between 17k and 18k(although somehow i was reading 5k, 7k, and 8k respectivly),,,,i think i just glanced at the altimeter, and assumed i was at 5k field.  this does lead me to a couple more questions though.  when i flew the hurri2c in there, i mentioned i had gotten her into violent stall/spin twice. she wasn't handling anywhere near what she does at lower alts......i've never fought in a hurri above 8-10k alt.
 in the 38G, i noticed the same performance differences....but i thought the 38 was much better above 20k than at lower alts, so wouldn't it then be assumed that she'd handle much better at 17k than she does at say......7k?


thanks again!!! especially for your explanation mtnman!!!<>sir

[mtnman]

All of the planes are more difficult to fly at higher alt, due to the lower air pressure.  Some planes are better at high alt than others.  The two factors that seem to matter the most are engines and airfoils.  The engines with superchargers do better at altitude than those without.  The thinner airfoils handle better at alt I believe, but I'm really out of my area of expertise here.  Someone more qualified will hopefully explain better.

That said, the performance of the P38 is better at higher alts, but that doesn't mean it's easier to fly.  It means it flies more efficiently there, getting better range and speed.

Planes with engines meant to fly at high alt have an advantage over planes that don't.  But all planes are harder to fly high.  A Hurri and a P38 are both more difficult, but the Hurri is handicapped even more.  Generally, planes are easier to stall and snaproll,  and the thin air makes it harder to recover.  When at higher alts, you just need to fly "smoother", with smaller and slower joystick corrections.

Like anything else, practice at altitude will make you better, and give you a distinct advantage over someone less experienced.  And like anything else, no matter how good you get there is always someone better right around the corner waiting to show you just how much more you need to practice.

Glad the explanation was appreciated and helpful.  Go try out the information, and re-read the info again when you are a little more familiar with the tactic.  You'll still die LOTS while learning, but you'll eventually get it down.

Also, remember that for every tactic employed in this game, there are ways to counter that tactic.  You will run across pilots that will take your finely honed tactic and smack you over the head with it so hard you'll go cross-eyed!  Air combat is like dancing.  Learning a step or two won't make you an ace.  You need to learn all the steps, and when to incorporate them, and how to flow smoothly from one to the next, even if something pops out to surprise you.  Much easier said than done.

If you see me online, don't hesitate to holler if you need a little help.  I for one along with many others are willing to help you through the rough spots...

MtnMan

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by CAP1
mtnman, THAT has to be the absolute best, most precise explanation/description i've ever read.

Agreed.  Thanks for taking the time to post that.

- oldman

[lilprop]

MtnMan - I got some practice using your method in the offline practice area.  The circling drones aren't ideal, but they're something to shoot at.

The problem I run into is a combination the bombers under the nose of my aircraft and what seems like an excessive rate of closure during the final part of my dive.  I end up missing, not getting enough rounds into the target, or colliding.

After re-reading your post, I'll have to try it again and record it, make sure I'm not just doing it wrong.  I fly a 51d, but I don't think it would be that much different than a corsair.

CAP1 - At higher altitudes, the air is thinner.  That means your wings are generating less lift at a given airspeed.  This makes for a much narrower performance envelope.

If you look at  your airspeed indicator at high altitude, you'll notice that your indicated airspeed (where the white needle points) and your true air speed (where the little red mark is) are a lot different.  Your indicated speed is much lower.  The thing to remember is when your indicated air speed drops to your plane's stall speed, you're stalling regardless of altitude.

I think when people say a plane is a good high altitude performer they're speaking of it's performance relative to other planes at that altitude.

[mtnman]

Lilprop, the pony isn't that far off from the corsair.  This manuever will work fine for it, as well as almost any plane in AH.  Some planes will need to make adjustments though.  The corsair still handles great at high speed, where some planes don't (the pony does too).   Planes like the N1k, KI-84, ACM5, and most of the Spitfires will have serious issues at the speeds I commonly approach bombers at.  Their aileron and elevator authority diminish at high speeds, making it tough to manuever.  They will have trouble getting their nose on target, and if they do, they will be pretty dang likely to ram into the back of the bomber.  If they survive that, they will likely be way under the bomber group after their pass, and be scrubbing E like mad trying to pull out before they meet the ground.

That said, this manuever will work for them too.  They just need to adjust their speed and rate of closure.  I'm  guessing that that is what you need to do as well.  You may need to chop throttle way down in your dive.  I generally do.  But as I level and go back up, I'm WEP'ed and trying to quickly get out of the gun range of the bomber, and also to maximize my zoom-climb.  Planes that need to fly slower due to handling problems will need to make a smaller loop to to avoid overspeed on the dive.  This may mean they need to dodge some bullets, and will likely mean that instead of the loop it will be more of a large barrel roll at the top.  If they try this manuever without those modifications at lower speed, they will end up attacking the bombers from the rear.

Those moves are also what you will need to think about when you end up in this manuever at some point with too little speed.

If you come into this move with speed, you're really kind of killing time at the top of the manuever waiting for the bombers to fly back into the sweet spot under you so you can dive back in.  It may be that you don't recognize where that sweet spot is yet, and what it looks like.  This is a lot harder to do on a drone that is flying in a constant turn, than the normal MA bomber who flies straight.  

This time at the top of the loop is where I scan for enemy fighters before commiting to another pass, and avoid putting myself at a positional disadvantage while flying a predictable path.  Lack of SA will get you killed even if you have this or any other manuever mastered.

The drones offline also fly slower than normal, which will give you some timing issues.  Offline, your approach will be too fast, and online you will have adjusted to the slower offline bombers (that don't shoot at you), causing you to be behind in your timing and placing you about 400 yds behind the bombers (who are shooting at you).  The offline drones are great for the raw basics, but lose their value after that.  Learnn to fly loops, rolls, chandelles, and anything else you can around them, without EVER losing track of where they are.  They are also helpful for deflection shooting practice.

Keeping track of your target, manuevering into killing position, and the timing that goes into it are the hard parts.  Practice online is IMO the only way to master it.  You can do it in the DA or TA if ou can find someone willing, or else try it in the MA, where there are more people.  In the mA, friendly bombers as targets work just fine.  They are easy to find, don't shoot you down, and will probably be overjoyed to have a friendly fighter loitering near them.  Obviously you can't shoot them though.  You can try this manuever repeatedly on them with no consequences for screwing up.  If speed isn't your issue, this will fix your timing/manuevering/target tracking problems.

That is probably the best way to practice, and can be done while still playing the game.  Spending a long time finding enemy bombers, then getting killed by them executing a less-than-perfect manuever, or getting killed by the fighter you didn't see, or having the bombers killed by a friendly with more experience while you are setting up a pass can be discouraging.  It doesn't make for an ideal training environment.

Getting used to the .50's can be tough at first.  They are as effective as chainsaws when mastered, but as effective as marshmallows before that.

Just so I don't get any buff pilots riled for getting them killed-

Another defense to this move is to adjust your heading while the fighter is getting into position, or while he is going back up.  A 30 degree or so turn left or right will screw him up if he's not watching you as he climbs.  It puts the fighter out of position, and if he isn't careful or willing to adjust his position, his next attack will be from your six.  Anything the bomber pilot does to cause the fighter pilot to take too long between passes or effectively lose his speed/alt advantage works to help the bombers.

Another very effective counter, especially if coupled to the previously mentioned tactic, is to set your auto-climb/auto-speed speed to about 300mph.  This will put you into a shallow dive, but will limit your speed so you don't shed your wings.  Get in the guns, and use rudder to make those course adjustments.  Get ready for some shooting!  This speed change and turning will force the fighter behind you, rather than above you.  Don't turn too hard, try to keep your drones in formation.  They are vulnerable if they stray.

This tactic doesn't work so well if the bombers are on the deck.  They need the safety of several thousand feet.

So what do you do if you're the fighter and the bombers counter you like this?  I'd think about looking for a different set of buffs, or be ready to lift a shiny new fighter.  Or get ready for one heck of a good, fun fight!  It's much more fun and satisfying to fight and beat an opponent who uses his head!  Even when you lose it develops a sense of respect for other players, which is always good.

[REP0MAN]

CAP,

your problem in the DA is fuel load. The burn rate is much slower in the DA so you are probably carrying more fuel than you need, forcing your flight characteristics to be different than you are used to.

Hope that helps.