one 4 the learners #2

[clerick]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
Sorry but you're wrong.

E is the combined state of kinetic energy (speed) and potential energy (alt).  Either form of energy can be traded for the other maintaining the same overall energy state, therefore, you can transfer alt for SPEED or SPEED for alt but you can't transfer speed for alt and speed.

Gets me thinking..  when we as fighter pilotses talk about e-states it is often implied that E refers to potential energy, at least thats how it is often worded.  This is technically incorrect.  

But, what i'm wondering is when talking about co-E does that include a lower faster con and higher slower con?  If you add up the potential and kinetic energy of both planes they are both at the same total E, but are they truely co-E as we talk about in terms of BCM?

[Major Biggles]

Originally posted by clerick
Gets me thinking..  when we as fighter pilotses talk about e-states it is often implied that E refers to potential energy, at least thats how it is often worded.  This is technically incorrect.  

But, what i'm wondering is when talking about co-E does that include a lower faster con and higher slower con?  If you add up the potential and kinetic energy of both planes they are both at the same total E, but are they truely co-E as we talk about in terms of BCM?

yup, pretty much atleas that's how i always thought about it

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by clerick
But, what i'm wondering is when talking about co-E does that include a lower faster con and higher slower con?  If you add up the potential and kinetic energy of both planes they are both at the same total E, but are they truely co-E as we talk about in terms of BCM?

Given the appropriate speed differences a faster lower con may be at the exact same E state as a higher slower con which is what makes judging E such a tricky business but one we all need to take into account.

Most people mistakenly think speed is E and discuss acm in such terms.  This is simply wrong.

Think about it this way.  In a B'n'Z you start high at say, 400 mph.  You dive 2000 feet to your target reaching lets say slightly over 500 mph.  You fire and begin your zoom climb.  Without gravity or drag (easily overcome by using WEP) you end up at your starting altitude and speed.  You're E state remained constant throughout.  Your alt changed by 2000 feet and your speed changed by slightly over 100 mph but you're overall E state remained constant.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by clerick
Gets me thinking..  when we as fighter pilotses talk about e-states it is often implied that E refers to potential energy, at least thats how it is often worded.  This is technically incorrect.  

But, what i'm wondering is when talking about co-E does that include a lower faster con and higher slower con?  If you add up the potential and kinetic energy of both planes they are both at the same total E, but are they truely co-E as we talk about in terms of BCM?

This is how I had put it...
"E" refers to the total kinetic, and potential energy you have available to you at any given moment.
It is also important to note that because the two types of energy ARE interchangeable, a lower, fast plane and a higher, slower plane may have equal E. Think about it a second. If the low plane converts it's kinetic energy into potential energy by climbing, it may well end up the same altitude and speed as the plane above it.

But on and even more practical term, I often view it in the context of the theoretical maxium altitude that can be achived while still maintaining controled flight at a given instant.  Because it can often come down to that in a fight.

[clerick]

Originally posted by Murdr

It is also important to note that because the two types of energy ARE interchangeable, a lower, fast plane and a higher, slower plane may have equal E. Think about it a second. If the low plane converts it's kinetic energy into potential energy by climbing, it may well end up the same altitude and speed as the plane above it.

But on and even more practical term, I often view it in the context of the theoretical maxium altitude that can be achived while still maintaining controled flight at a given instant.  Because it can often come down to that in a fight.

Right, i understand and agree 100%.  What i guess i was questioning, too delicately maybe, was that often on these boards people talk about E in terms of ONLY the alt (potential) componant.  I think that if enough people read this thread they will understand that there are 2 parts, kinetic AND potential.

[Vad]

Originally posted by LYNX
Name this maneuver (centre picture).  

Split S

What purpose did it serve?  

It is impossible to say having this information. It depends on the speed of both planes.

If Hurry  had speed around its maximum speed on that alt pilot did the stupidest thing. He just bled  E, and get nothing in return. All that speculations about replacing alt for speed doesn't work in this case. He lost E without anyting in return. To understand that you just need to take drag in consideration:
- you have high speed, full throttle, stable condition, thrust equal drag.
- you dive, you get more speed
- you level on the lower alt, with higher speed
- but now drag is much more than your thrust (drag is proportional to the square of speed), and you will be decelerating, even with full thottle! After few seconds your speed drops to the same level that you had on the higher alt
- you just lost potential energy, and didn't get anything in exchange.

You had to go to immel in this situation.

If you was slow, split S is the best what you can do. In this case you really exchanged alt for speed, lost of energy was insignificant.

What would you now do if you was the P51?

P.S the other plane is a Hurri IIC

I would kill him in the both situations.

If speed was high, I would flat turn up to tunnel effect to burn as much energy as possible to equalize it, i don't need so much energy any more. What I need to kill Hurry is just the same speed and 1000-1500 alt advantage, Hurry doesn't climb well anyway.

If speed was slow, I would climb and immel with flaps. I would lose a lot of speed but get 2500-3000 more alt. Actually the same situation, and what I need is just to trade 1000 alt for speed, and I would have the same speed as Hurry plus alt agvantage.

In any case I would keep control of the fight.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by clerick
Right, i understand and agree 100%.  What i guess i was questioning, too delicately maybe, was that often on these boards people talk about E in terms of ONLY the alt (potential) componant.  I think that if enough people read this thread they will understand that there are 2 parts, kinetic AND potential.

Or if they visit the Trainers Site and happen to read the article it was cut from

[clerick]

Originally posted by Murdr
Or if they visit the Trainers Site and happen to read the article it was cut from

Yeah yeah yeah, why does it ALWAYS have to be about Murdr?

[Ghastly]

It's all in how you look at it... being as how it's a screenshot from Aces High, this is my interpretation of what took place:




Clearly, it's the classic HOFBLO maneuver.


!

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by LYNX
Name this maneuver (centre picture).  

[/IMG]

What purpose did it serve?  
What would you now do if you was the P51?

P.S the other plane is a Hurri IIC

The P-51 has a couple of options.  He could press the fight and keep pressure on the Hurricane by throttling back (so as not to overspeed) and follow Hurricane's maneuver with a Split-S of its own which would then put the P-51 in a good position for a shot if the Hurricane break turns.  

Or, the P-51 could have gone vertical as the Hurricane did its Split-S and regain the altitude advantage and BnZ away on the Hurricane.  The only problem with this is that you increase the seperation between both planes giving the Hurricane to put some distance between you and him as well as allowing the Hurricane to regain some energy and possibly some altitude.

I personally would press the attack.


ack-ack

[Vad]

Originally posted by Ghastly
It's all in how you look at it... being as how it's a screenshot from Aces High, this is my interpretation of what took place:




Clearly, it's the classic HOFBLO maneuver.


!

The best,  <>!

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Major Biggles
split S was the wrong thing to do in this case, unless there was absolutely no other option

I disagree with this as a blanket statement.  Context matters.  If I want this fight here and now, a split-s may come in 3rd place on my list of choices.  If I want to drag out, delay, or move this fight to another location, a split-s may very well be my first choice.

split S wastes E, it's a simple fact. you've turned the GPE that was your alt into speed, which gets sucked away by drag and a tight turn. you go back up again and gain GPE but you've lost a lot of airspeed.

Context also matters here, but I don't feel like delving into the technical.  Actually, all I'd really like to do is caution against beating up on a basic maneuver too severly in a thread for "learners". (I really had a good football playbook analogy to go with that, but it would be wasted on a thread full of brits)

[Vad]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The P-51 has a couple of options.  He could press the fight and keep pressure on the Hurricane by throttling back (so as not to overspeed) and follow Hurricane's maneuver with a Split-S of its own which would then put the P-51 in a good position for a shot if the Hurricane break turns.  


I personally would press the attack.

ack-ack

You?! You will never do that, you are too good to make such stupid mistake.
Take a look on the diving angle of P51. Nobody even you will be able to follow Hurry split S if dived with this angle. If you tried good Hurry pilot would make that perfect reverse what I saw few times in your implementation (if i'm right with my guess, and you are AKA).

[LYNX]

Oh dear,  I have to swallow the humble pie.  It's a tad gloopy but palatable with a cold one.

Major Biggles paper has been regraded to an A but then down graded to C for showing me up.  For the sake of the learners my mistake was talking of speed as ENERGY, potential or other wise.   BadEagl corrected the corrector with .....you can transfer alt for SPEED or SPEED for alt but you can't transfer speed for alt and speed.    I really should have kept me clap trap shut ....my appols Major Biggles.

My error has made the thread err fluid to say the least.  However, "E" fighting topics are, in my opinion, quite advanced for the learners.  Something for another day but if learners want to read up on it Murdr has links + google has many threads.

To get back on topic I'll copy some replies.
Major Biggles
a better way of avoiding this attack, but also leaving you in a position to equalise E states and take a pop at the pony would be a high break turn. given closure rates, this would make you hard to hit, while also gaining you E (alt counts as E just as much as airspeed does). after he passes try to climb to him, otherwise he will be out of reach

Ghastly
The trade-off for the high break turn over the split-esse is that the split-esse is going to be almost "idiot proof" and virtually guarantee success for at least one maneuver - by which time the situation may have changed. The high break turn is much harder to time especially for someone who's not skilled in BOTH aircraft involved, and if you misjudge lag and/or relative speed and maneuverability, you are one flaming Hurricane.

TequilaChaser
I would continue to roll my lift vector toward the hurri2C and pull an instantaneous turn riding the tunnel since I have some speed ( E ) to actually burn and keep the attack ON at the current time in the screenshot...the Hurri2C most times would not expect a BnZ ing pony to keep in the attack, most times would think they would climb back up and continue again to BnZ.......if I failed to make the shot on the 2nd attack, I would then zoom up and drag the Hurri til he floundered then roll over and pull nose down and go THUMP him in the head........

lastly starting opening of page 3
VAD
If speed was high, I would flat turn up to tunnel effect to burn as much energy as possible to equalize it, i don't need so much energy any more. What I need to kill Hurry is just the same speed and 1000-1500 alt advantage, Hurry doesn't climb well anyway.

If speed was slow, I would climb and immel with flaps. I would lose a lot of speed but get 2500-3000 more alt. Actually the same situation, and what I need is just to trade 1000 alt for speed, and I would have the same speed as Hurry plus alt advantage.

In any case I would keep control of the fight.

[sgt203]

As I am not very good as a fighter pilot but in the interest of learning I will add my $.02..

The Hurri did a split esse to avoid the BnZ of the higher and apparently faster P-51.

IMO the purpose it served was to 1 avoid the BnZ and trade some alt for speed to possibly try and gain separation..

I would think the 51 should chop some (not alot) of throttle and pull an immelman which would put him on the high 6 of the hurri and would have bled off some speed..

At this time he can either press quickly for another BnZ attack or begin a slower decent onto the hurri to be better able to gain a shooting solution on the hurri who is still going to be lower and slower and is still on the defensive..

I would not however try and get into a turn fight with the hurri..

I would try and maintain an alt and speed advantage at all times during the fight.

As a fairly lousy fighter guy that is what I would probably do..

OK... commence with the Schooling  

P.S. Like the threads make for some good reading <<>>