Author Topic: Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.  (Read 1374 times)

Offline Shifty

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2007, 04:26:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
when i was in the military my jeep did not even have doors on it, forget about armor.

 


Jeeps, Fatigues, and Piss Pots instead of Humvees, ACU's and Kevlar. Those were the days.:D

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Offline rpm

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2007, 11:29:55 PM »
Hey Shifty, a quick wrapup and then I'll hush...

We have a chance for a change in government every 2 years when the midterm elections come round. This time it was apparent that the majority of voters were not happy with the way things were going and wanted change. That is what's happening with this congress.

We are both in agreement about the lack of sacrifice by the majority of Americans. If we rationed gasoline, the war would be over in months if not weeks.

I also need to apologuise for my excessive use of "you". I do not mean you personally when talking about the democrat bashers, I refer to those attacking anyone that does not back Bush. I need to start rephrasing that before I confuse anyone else.

I do stand behind calling this administration "Chickenhawks". Bush's service was a joke. He didn't serve his term and ran off to play politics instead of doing his duty. He also ducked out of taking a flight physical after drug testing was included. If he had really wanted to serve in Vietnam as a pilot there were plenty of openings with greater chances of being deployed besides the TANG. Cheney had more deferments than a golfball has dimples. In fact the only member of the Bush administration with credible military experience was Colin Powell but he got out of there as fast as he could.

to you family members serving. May they return safe and sound... and soon.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
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Offline FrodeMk3

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2007, 12:36:52 AM »
Origanally posted by RPM

Quote
In fact the only member of the Bush administration with credible military experience was Colin Powell but he got out of there as fast as he could.



Did anyone else find that peculiar? I kinda thought that Powell was set pretty firmly in the administration, But suddenly, poof...

I've never heard much about his story on that. It might have some relevance to the topic at hand.

Offline tedrbr

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2007, 12:08:46 PM »
One reason the coalition did not finish Iraq in 1991-1992 was it would have left Iran the sole big boy on the block.  No one wanted that.

Despite the Gulf War, or the oil embargo of the 70's, America continues to become more dependent on Middle East oil to meet it's energy needs, thus committing itself to the region and trying to keep the lid on that particular pressure cooker.  No real effort is made to change that.

Afghanistan was an easy decision.  When the taliban and al Qaida fled Afghanistan for Indonesia, Bangladesh, Philippians, Pakistan, and other SE Asian vacation spots..... we obviously chased them to Iraq  (you'd think there would be a few maps around the Pentagon and White House, maybe a globe, wouldn't you?).

Although there was slightly less support to attack Iraq as there was Afghanistan; popular support was still in the midsts of "war fever" post 9/11 and coming off a quick "victory" in Afghanistan.  Those that stated they were against an attack on Iraq were labeled unpatriotic --- ask the Dixie Chicks what happened to those that voiced concern in 2002-2003.   The Administration pushed for it, the public supported it, and Congress went with popular opinion.

The intel was bad, the justification worse, for going after Saddam.  He and his boys were bullies and all about keeping themselves in power and intimidating their neighbors and own people, but he was never a direct threat to the U.S.  Only 1 terrorist camp in all of Iraq, in the NE border, to train Iranian partisans to tick off his old enemies in Iran.  Before occupation, Iraq was one of the most secular Arab nations you could find.  No way he had any connection to al Qadia; they operated at opposite extremes in that part of the world.

More likely, they saw a country they could "take", which had oil reserves and a strategic location in the Middle East.  My guess is the Administration wanted to create the equivalent of a friendly South Korea in the Middle East with U.S. military bases from which to project power, influence, and democratic ideals (while some get rich off of it all).


The Administration and Pentagon screwed up Iraq operations by the numbers:
* Too few troops to secure the country.  They sold the war as a low number and short term expedition.  Home by Christmas.

* U.S. goes to war with a force mix intended to fight the Soviets in Europe.  Tanks and IFV's.  U.S. force mix not tailored for low-intensity conflicts (despite previous experience in Bosnia, Somolia, and evidence of how modern conflict is evolving) which find armored cars more effective and depend on "boots on the ground".  HMMV's (not to mention Hemmets and 929/930 5-ton dump trucks) pressed into service as combat vehicles.  "Up armored" vehicles with "class 3 armor" become the norm (playing Mad Max in Iraq is not a lot of fun, from personal experience).

* U.S. plans originally intended to secure arms and munitions with Iraqi troops and police after the invasion.... then we fired the 400,000 soldiers, sailors, and airmen of the Iraqi military forces, as well as all the police (the people in D.C. who made that decision should be hung --- no trial, just hang them).

* With no one left to secure all the ammo dumps all over the country, they got raided.  4 years into the occupation, and there were still unsecured ammo dumps in Iraq.  Those dumps were raided of munitions, and most of the soldiers killed by IED's were killed because the U.S. military failed to secure those munitions early on.

* 400,000 unemployed former military and police members (many who knew where much of the munitions were buried or hid in the country side in the first place) made for an easy pool to recruit insurgents to attack Allied forces.  Patton did not make that blunder in Germany this way in 1945.  McArthur didn't screw up post-WWII Japan this way.  You'd think someone from West Point would have considered those two examples for the war in Iraq.

* Democratic Elections and "Freedom" (cue Mister Gibson please) touted as the cure all.  Without security, democracy doesn't seem to stand a chance.  The entire premise of all Iraqis coming together to sing kum-bay-ya comes down to western arrogance and a total disregard for the region, it's history, and it's people.  Very few in Iraq are loyal to Iraq.  Their loyalty is to their religious sect, their Allytolah, Mullah or Iam, to their tribe, to their clan, or to taking vengeance on whoever wronged them or their family eight generations ago.  
A strong central government would have been a much better choice for an interim Iraq.  Get the security -- then look toward democratic rule if feasible.

A report then comes out saying to bring Iran and Syria into solving the problem in Iraq.  But Iran and Syria have no interest in a secure Iraq that is friendly to western powers.  Syria and Jordan get to see their more troublesome citizens cross to Iraq to get themselves killed.  Iran get to try an influence a Shii'a Arab led government friendly to their Shii'a Persian led government.  The Turks worry about the Kurds.  Everyone in the region has interests in Iraq, just not the same interests.


Now, in frustration, with popular opinion turning against the war in Iraq (and everyone now stating they opposed it at the beginning...rriiiigggghhhtttt tt), Congress wants to pull out.  Unfortunately, that is a bad idea.  We went in.  We screwed everything up.  To leave now can only push the region into further turmoil.   15 British sailors get taken by Iran, and the price of oil goes up.  What does anyone think will happen to the region and oil prices if the U.S. pulls out of Iraq and the whole country implodes?  $150+ US for a barrel of sweet crude and the total collapse of western economies?

I very much doubt there is a "good" solution to Iraq right now.  It's come down to what's "less bad", and leaving the country to it's own devices just seems to be about the single biggest risk the western nations could take.

Meanwhile; 3 to 4 dozen terrorist training camps can be found in Bangladesh alone.  Groups like al Qaida have come a long way in regrouping from their defeat in Afghanistan, since we took the pressure off them.  

You can point to many problems from the past that led us to this point.  I don't believe there are any easy or near-term solutions to be found.  And I doubt there is the political will or popular support to reach any acceptable goal from this point forward.  Certainly we lack anything like leadership.

Offline john9001

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2007, 12:35:55 PM »
Saudis capture 172 al qaeda terriorsts, break up 11 cells, capture arms caches in desert.

yeah , you right teddy bear, we losing the war big time.:rolleyes:

Offline Eagler

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2007, 01:05:56 PM »
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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Offline FrodeMk3

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2007, 01:57:24 PM »
You know, I saw that too, John. It's here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070427/wl_nm/saudi_security_arrests_dc_2

I did find it really strange, though, that the Saudi's could have success like this, and not help us much in Iraq...

The News clip said that these guys were planning to attack Oil facilities. I guess hitting them in the pocketbook is what makes our "friends" get off their ass.

BTW: These guys were caught in Saudi Arabia, by Saudi's...This doesn't really reflect on what we're doing in Iraq. Sorry, Tedrbr still hit it on the head, as usual.

Offline john9001

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2007, 02:15:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3

BTW: These guys were caught in Saudi Arabia, by Saudi's...This doesn't really reflect on what we're doing in Iraq. Sorry, Tedrbr still hit it on the head, as usual.


the war is against al qaeda not iraq.

Offline mosgood

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2007, 03:09:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
saddam and his idiot sons would agree with you.

if they were still alive.



that's right... and it was totally worth all the money that was spent to take them  out of power..... right?   :huh

Offline john9001

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2007, 03:27:40 PM »
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Originally posted by mosgood
that's right... and it was totally worth all the money that was spent to take them  out of power..... right?   :huh


why don't you ask some Iraqi that had their family tortured and killed?

Offline mosgood

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2007, 03:38:08 PM »
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Originally posted by john9001
why don't you ask some Iraqi that had their family tortured and killed?


You mean ask someone that didn't pay for it whether or not it was worth it?  Why?

Offline Eagler

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2007, 03:40:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mosgood
that's right... and it was totally worth all the money that was spent to take them  out of power..... right?   :huh


more of a reason to stick it out .. we will not get any payback if we turn tail and run out like the dems "New Direction" proposes.
Not to mention how much we will have to spend to ship everyone and everything back over there in less than 5 years when the sheet really hits the fan in the region after our retreat and gas soars to $8 to $10 a gallon ... or do you think our retreat will stabilize the region, everyone will love us again and gas will be $2 gallon 4ever ... LOL
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Offline tedrbr

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2007, 12:03:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
the war is against al qaeda not iraq.


Really?  Well, since al Qaida did not begin operating in Iraq until after we invaded the country,...why did we invade Iraq if the war was against al Qaida?   al Qaida's operatives from Afghanistan that we beat there fled to Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, The Philippines, possibly Thailand, Malaysia, probably Yemen, and Eastern African Nations.

Why did we chase them to where they did not go?  Folks in charge can't read a bloody map?

And al Qaida is a smaller portion of the overall problem in Iraq.  They are more successful on a per person basis vs U.S. Forces in Iraq, and the news plays them up due to name recognition, but the far greater numbers and problems are among the Insurgency (many Baathists) and the various fighting between sectarian factions (Sunni vs Shiia, tribe vs tribe, everyone vs the Kurds, secular vs fundamentalists, militia vs militia or government).  al Qaida in Iraq is only a small part of the problem.


And, even though Saddam and his two boys were evil, sadistic, and cruel, prone to torturing their own people (now the U.S. gets to torture their people albeit in a cleaner environment); the people of Iraq were one heck of a lot safer (and generally living in better conditions as to food, fuel, electricity, schools, and sanitation) under their rule than they are now.  
Besides, if the western nations actually cared anything about the civilian populations, don't you think they'd have done something about Darfur?  or entered Bosnia a lot sooner back in the day?


And one other point as to Saudi Arabia.  The Crown Prince and Royal Family have been putting together names of those with them and against them over the past few years.  I half expect a "Night of the Long Knives" to occur there someday, if the situation deteriorates.  al Qaida is against the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia, so that the Saudis are conducting raids against them in their own country has been an ongoing thing since long before 9/11.  Has nothing really to do with our "Long War", just a continuation of existing power plays.

Offline x0847Marine

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2007, 01:44:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
why don't you ask some Iraqi that had their family tortured and killed?


Under Bush Jrs new definition of "torture", most of what Saddam did would now be considered "legal".

But lets ask the 27,000 Iraq's US troops have rounded up and stuck in places like Abu Grab where they were "tortured" by any common sense definition, or the family of the guy murdered there, beaten to death, by Navy Seals / CIA...

Saddam was indeed a giant loser, but he kept the electricity on, garbage was collected, the sewers didn't over flow into the streets, there was viable police force in place, suicide bombers went having a field day slaughtering people... ask them about the great job Bush has done in these areas.

Just like under Saddam people are being rounded up jailed, mistreated (tortured) with no due process, their homes are subject to being raided & searched with no cause... US troops even kick people out of their homes with no notice and use it as a base of operations... all while festering in sewage and living in lawless chaos.... oh yea but little Bush says the Iraqi people are now living in "freedom", so its all good.

It's not out troops fault Iraq is a giant failure, they've been given an impossible task; prop up a US installed gov in the mid east, which the people of the region have rejected once in Iran, and they'll be working just as hard for as long as it takes to do the same in Iraq... for all the same reasons.

Offline john9001

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Reasons Not to Invade Iraq by Bush Sr.
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2007, 03:26:36 PM »
x0847Marine, i can see you have absolutely no idea what saddam did to the people of Iraq.