Author Topic: Real Life Projectile Precision vs. AH Precision  (Read 1517 times)

Offline Bodhi

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Real Life Projectile Precision vs. AH Precision
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2007, 06:01:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
In the environment that AH has, you need to know how much fuel you have, how much ammo you have, and judge when its time to get the hell out of Dodge. In real life this was EASY.


That is a very arrogant and incorrect statement that I think many real life pilots would disagree with at great length.
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Offline mtnman

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Real Life Projectile Precision vs. AH Precision
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2007, 06:17:34 PM »
I do some pretty extensive shooting with muzzleloading firearms, and have been doing so for a good 20 years.  I'm very picky about the guns I shoot, how they're loaded, and the factors that influence my accuracy.  My sighting in and tweaking are done on a bench, my target shooting and competitions are done off-hand (standing, with no rest).  I shoot only flintlock muzzleloaders, which are also "traditionally" styled.  I easily fire 300-400 well aimed shots per year with these weapons.  I also shoot 22-250's, .270's, .22's (LR, Shorts, CB's, and Magnums), 38's, and a 12 gauge using both shot and slugs.

I can throw some information in to answer or at least give light to the slower heavier projectile question which originally opened this thread.

Regardless of propellent type used, the larger sized projectiles do not lose much, if anything, due to their size- at least as far as accuracy potential is concerned.  The size really isn't the issue.  Barrel quailty/straightness, sights, aiming ability, weapon soundness, and consistancy of loading affect accuracy much more.

The big projectiles slow down faster, and as a result follow a more "arched" trajectory.  They are more prone to wind-drift, a factor not in play in AH.  When a bullet is stabilized by the rifling, it is spinning along the longitudinal axis.  It slows down in forward flight, but this spinning does not slow down nearly as fast.  As long as it spins enough, it is stabilized.  Its RPM will slow down enough to lose stability well past the point where the projectile has lost enough forward speed to be effective.  So it will lose power well before it loses its potential to fly straight.

Of course, as it slows in forward movement it also becomes more succeptable to wind-drift, etc.  And a spinning projectile will "walk" to the side a bit, which seems more pronounced as it slows.

It's interesting to note that a larger diameter projectile needs less spin to stabilize than a smaller diameter projectile.  The ratio of length to diameter matters tons, too.  My .54 caliber roundball needs only a 1 in 70 inch twist to stabilize, where my .50 caliber roundball needs about 1 in 56.  Conical projectiles need more rapid twist to be stabilized.  I'm not actually going to get up to check, but I believe my .270 needs about 1 in 17 inches, and my 22-250 needs 1 in 10 or so.  The greater the ratio of length/diameter, the faster the twist.  Also realize that the amount of inches traveled during one full rotation isn't the real important thing, the RPM is.  Firing a projectile at a faster speed also increases the RPM.  A bullet traveling a given distance spins the same number of revolutions regardless of its speed.  You can make it spin faster/slower though by increasing or decreasing its forward speed (how much powder, more or less).  

Sights and shooting/aiming ability are more important, given an adequate firearm.  My .54 flintlock with its 1 in 70 twist will fire shots into a 3 inch group at 100 yards all day, even with open sights.  I know lots of folks that can't do that with a scoped 30-06 or .270.  My scoped .270 will shoot 2 inch groups at 200 yards.  So would my .54 if there was no wind and I attached a scope.  My 22-250 shoots accurately enough to shoot dimes at 200 yds.  Why?  Because it has less recoil to throw off my aim, the bullets are cheaper, so I shoot more (practice), and it is more enjoyable to shoot with the lower recoil.

Larger projectiles are accurate.  They need even less spin to be stabilized, because they are generally shorter.  They don't usually need the extra length because at the higher diameter they are already heavy enough.  Heck, my .75 Brown Bess will shoot 4 inch groups at 75 yards, and has no rifling, a horribly slow lock-time (try aiming with a fireball a few inches from your eye), and a very primitive stock configuration.  It's muzzle velocity is only about 800 FPS, compared to my .54 rifle at 1800 FPS, my .270 at 3000 FPS, and my 22-250 at about 4000 FPS.  

With the slower velocity, a stationary target is easiest to hit.  So flying straight away from one is bad.

Obviously more factors play in here, but it would be best to read a book on ballistics that to explain them all here...

MtnMan
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Offline Stoney74

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Real Life Projectile Precision vs. AH Precision
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2007, 08:29:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mtnman


Obviously more factors play in here, but it would be best to read a book on ballistics that to explain them all here...

MtnMan


Thanks for the reply.  I follow all of that, and didn't realize the lower rifling to stabilization factor for larger rounds, although I did note that the patterns got tighter for the smaller rounds.

And, Viking, to answer your question, I don't know--perhaps you can enlighten me?  

What I do know is that with a muzzle velocity of 540 meter/sec, it would take a round almost 1.5 seconds just to make the 800 meter trip, and that's not even factoring for the additional 200 meters I would have travelled over the course of that time doing approximately 300 mph indicated.  If you factor that in, it would be almost be a 2 second flight time for that round to cover that distance, not compensating for deceleration.

And comparing it to the Ma Deuce and Hispano (with 930m/s and 880 m/s respectively), I think its safe to say comparitively that it was a "low muzzle velocity weapon".  In the WWII aviation ordnance world, much lower than its peers.

I could be completely off-base here, that's why I asked the question.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 08:32:44 PM by Stoney74 »

Offline Knegel

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Real Life Projectile Precision vs. AH Precision
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2007, 12:47:23 AM »
Hi,

in aircombat the dispersion factor on common shooting distances(30-400m) is more related to the mount of the weapon than the weapon itself.

Fuselage mounted weapons tend to have a smaler dispersion than wing mounted weapons, cause wings tend to twist.

Kweassa,

i absolut disagree to your "distance info / amo counter" assumption.

I often play AH without icons and to the ammo counter i rarely look if iam in a fight anyway, but i still make long distance shots and i hit, specialy with Hispanos and .50calīs.

In EAW we only have ammo counter for the german planes and we play often absolutly without icons, but long distance shots are common.

In IL-2, flying a plane with .50calīs or russian guns, long distance shots are also nothing special, although many play it absolut without icons. Although in that game strait 6oc hits dont happen that easy at all, but if a plane turn in maybe 800m distance its good possible to hit it, strangewise despite the need of a lead, while shooting.


The hability to make long distance kills imho depends to the ammo load, gun and pilot skill(experience), not to the ammo counter or distance information.

A experienced pilot have a good feeling about the number of rounds he shot and how many are left, and for a experienced "no icon gamer" its no problem to estimate the distances.

Greetings,

Knegel

Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2007, 03:44:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
The guys with hit consitently >10% are actually quite rare, less than 2% of all AH pilots are capable of this.


So, I have to assume that, despite my continous whining, I'm a good shot? :D
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Offline mipoikel

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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2007, 04:21:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo
So, I have to assume that, despite my continous whining, I'm a good shot? :D


In long range, yes. :(


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Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2007, 05:23:39 AM »
:lol That was a lucky shot on your turret! ;) :cool:
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2007, 05:31:38 AM »
Stoney, I suggest you get up in the air and try shooting someone down at 800 yards with a 30mm as you obviously wonder how anyone can make such a shot. ;) I'd say it needs a briefly unmaneuvering target and some luck.

Your question is good and in the past I have provided a chart about dispersion comparison I found from another site.

The shortness or length of barrel is not generally the deciding factor in accuracy but the longer barrel gives more muzzle velocity and thus flatter projectile arch.

Also the ROF affects this and the wing warpage is is propably only one thing affecting the accuracy. Other factors are ROF, and rigidness of gun mounting and homogenity of the ammo used.

That last factor would probably increase the accuracy of mtnman's older guns, too. If he could somehow assure that the powder load, bullet weight (and weight distribution), shape and tightness in the barrel (paper or cloth gasket) are always in very tight limits there are hardly limits for accuracy of those old guns. In practice the loading process cannot be as accurate so certain amount of dispersion is bound to happen.

-C+
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2007, 05:49:02 AM »
Found it:

Here are the results of a lenghty research into dispersion data, which is quite hard to come by...
The data is based on 100% diameter dispersion with 1 mil = 1/1000th of rad, the kind of mount is precised next to the weapon. 75% dispersion diameter is supposed to be half the 100% diameter which seems quite true for most weapons, this value is provided when quoted in the source (M2 data for instance).

We can clearly see the impact of the wing mounting compared to engine mounting, the later seems to have absorbed recoil and vibration much better... indeed dispersion is at least 2 times greater with wing mounted weapons.

Engine mount are the most efficient but nose mounting or cowling mounting does not provide the same amount of precision the mount being much more prone to vibration it seems.

Note that US data on the M2 is confusing since the reference data comes from a P-38 nose mounted M2, but the US manuals use the same dispersion data for wing mounted weapons. Either the P-38 mounts are really up to no good or the manuals make a wrong assumption when it comes to wing dispersion. I tend to believe the later, i think the wing mounted M2 would have had a dispersion of at least 12mils and probably more.

If you quote this data on other sites/bbs please precise the source being AAW. TIA

H means Height (or max dispersion diameter) as i previously used vertical and lateral dispersion values.

D means distance.

Units are metric.

German Weapons
-----------------------
MG-17 Cowling mounted (Bf 109F-2 / Bf 109F-1 actual tests)
H = 0.60 / 0.8 m
D = 100 m
R/D = 60/10000 80/10000
= 6 mils / 8 mils

MG-131 Cowling mounted (Fw 190A - theorical max)
H = 1m
D = 100m
H/D = 100/10000
= 10 mils

MG-151/15 Engine mounted (Bf 109F-2 actual test)
H = 0,35 m
D = 100 m
H/D = 35/10000
= 3.5 mils

MG-FF Engine mounted (Bf 109F-1 actual test)
H = 0,2 m
D = 100m
H/D = 20/10000
= 2 mils (very tight patern)

MG-FF Wing mounted (Bf 109E-3 actual test)
H = 0,35 m
D = 100m
H/D = 35/10000
= 3.5 mils

MG 151/20 Engine mounted (Bf 109G-6 - theorical max)
H = 0.3m
D = 100m
H/D = 30/10000
= 3 mils

MG 151/20 Wing mounted - inner (Fw 190A - theorical max)
H = 0.7m
D = 100m
H/D = 70/10000
= 7 mils

MG 151/20 Wing mounted - outer (Fw 190A - theorical max)
H = 0.8m
D = 100m
H/D = 80/10000
= 8 mils

MK 108 Engine mounted (Ta 152 - therorical max)
H = 0.35
D = 100m
H/D = 35/10000
= 3.5 mils

Allied Weapons
------------------
M2 Nose mounted P-38 (USAAF 1944 Gunnery manual)
H = 1.88 m
D = 229 m
H/D = 188/22900
= 8.2 mils (75% = 4.1 mils)

Hispano 20mm Nose mounted P-38 (USAAF 1944 Gunnery manual)
3 mils 75%
6 mils 100% assumed


From "Calculated "base" dispersion of guns based on energy delivered" thread in A&V forum.

-C+
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Offline 4deck

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hmmmm
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2007, 12:24:06 PM »
An actually discussion.

Thought I was being beckoned.
as you were.

*Quickly closes door *
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Offline wrag

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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2007, 02:34:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
I understand what you're saying, but...

With the Mk108, he only has to hit you with 1 round and its insta-tower, so with a 3.5% hit ratio, 30-40 rounds are all he's gonna need.  I haven't been shot down by a low-scoring (or quality) 110 pilot in some time...

Regardless, I'm still having a hard time understanding the ballistic properties of these bigger but lower muzzle velocity rounds.  They seem to track straight and true, just with a little more drop.  Given the lower muzzle velocity, they should lose precision at a higher rate than .50 cal or 13mm right?  Not to mention the shorter relative barrel length?


Hmmm.......

They don't go straight when I shoot em!

I've watched em go to the right, the left high low or a combination.

Missed allot of badguys with it!

When I use the .target command I've watched the rounds go all over the target!
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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2007, 09:11:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
From "Calculated "base" dispersion of guns based on energy delivered" thread in A&V forum.
-C+


If I remember correctly, 1 mil dispersion is equal to 1 meter left/right at 1000 meters range, yeah?

Anyone know what the mil values are for the .target function?  I did some test firings this morning to include screen shots for analysis and noticed some interesting trends.  Also, noticed almost every cannon in the game on that list, except the Mk108.

I'll post the screen shots later...

Thanks Charge.

EDIT:  Just saw the Mk108 data at the end--sorry...
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 09:14:32 PM by Stoney74 »

Offline hitech

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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2007, 08:53:05 AM »
The Horizontal lines in the tank sight are 5 mils wide.

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2007, 08:54:20 AM »
HT, you mean the .target sight?

Offline DarkglamJG52

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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2007, 11:49:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo
So, I have to assume that, despite my continous whining, I'm a good shot? :D


Gianlupo Tour 87

Kills Hit Percentage     14.30    

:O :O :O

    
Fortunately you flow the ki 84 so low yesterday :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:aok