Scissors help?

[mtnman]

I watched the "barrel roll defense" that was linked to Murdr's post.  I must say that as a training aid, it is awesome.  It clearly points out what happens and why.  I also think that the way it was linked into that previous thread is helpful, as more descriptive dialog was offered by Badboy, TC, and others.

I have visited the AH Trainers website, and have it linked in my "Favorites".  I think you guys (and gals!) have done and are doing wonderful work.

I think the films and diagrams are top-notch in quality.

I have a few points though, that I hope you guys accept as purely "constructive criticism".  Take 'em or leave 'em, I mean no dis-respect...

One-  I'm mostly computer illiterate, so I can't tell you exactly why/how the link to the "Rolling Scissors" gif was/is formed.  But I can tell you that it is FAR less useful to me as a training/learning aid than was Badboys Barrel Roll Defense.  Not because of the quality, because it is obviously high-quality.  But rather because I can't save the file to my PC and open and watch it.  The way it is linked, I have to sit and wait for it to load.  At my connect speed, I waited/watched for over 45 minutes (while watching TV, and then eating dinner).  In that 45 minutes, based on the little meter do-hicky at the bottom of my screen, I was able to see less than 1/2 of the file.  During that time I saw an incredibly slow slide show, changing slides at about 1 frame per minute.  

I may be in the minority, but don't have a fast connection.  I am limited by my phone company to 28K dial-up.  I normally connect at about 26K.  Cable is not available.  Satelite hook-up runs $600, plus nearly $100 per month.  That would cause my wife to kill me, and from what I've heard it's not really optimal for AH anyway.

Making this type file accessible to dial-up folks would be appreciated.  I tried getting it from the AH Trainers website with the same results.  (When AH updates its versions, it takes me in the neighborhood of 13 hours to download it.)  Maybe you don't want it able to be saved to another PC?  It is best for me to download large files by clicking and leaving, often while I am in bed...

Second-  Not to nitpick Badboys diagram of the rolling scissors, it is an awesome depiction, and one I could not improve on myself.  The one thing that bugs me though, when I try to look at it as an inexperienced person would, is that it appears as though at the beginning of the manuever the red plane is in back of the blue plane, and that at the end it still appears to be.  Looking at it from that perspective, what would be the advantage to flying the path it took?  Wouldn't we expect the blue plane to be squeezed out in front?  The relative flight paths, cylinder diameter/radius, lift vectors, etc are all depicted beautifully.  I just think this diagram would show the goal/ideal scenario more clearly had the blue plane been clearly losing because of the flightpath it took.  Otherwise it seems to show one plane flying the manuever better, but with no positive gain or outcome...

Obviously we won't always win the manuever, but...

Respectfully-

MtnMan

[Murdr]

Try this.  Right click on this link and "save target as..."
rolling scissors animation

One note I'd add is that the rolling scissors is an advanced ACM.  It often evolves from a barrel roll defense being countered a specific way by the opponent.  It is very useful, but it's not intended for the inexperienced player to dwell on.  Without a good knowledge of basic ACMs and tactics, it's not going to be very helpful to the novice.

[LancerVT]

Originally posted by Badboy
Hi

Here is a diagram I made shortly after that animation to explain the rolling scissors. If you study the image you can see what the red pilot is doing to win.



This diagram and the animation posted earlier should clarify the main points, other than that there are some interesting subtleties in the maneuver in terms of the appropriate control inputs that can yield very small but incremental advantages.  

Questions?

Badboy

Excellent diagram Badboy. This clearly shows why Dolfo got me when we engaged in a rolling scissors. He followed the path of the red plane, while I followed the path of the blue plane. I was going too fast and didnt have a steep enough angle. Within 3 rolls Dolfo was behind me I was in the tower.

Dolfo is a beast. I thought I did ok since I am a relative newcomer to the 38.

Dolfo. I would love to pick your brain sometime.

[mtnman]

Thank you Murdr!  That link-type is exactly what I needed!

As for the advanced level of the rolling scissors, I agree.  There are lots of other things inexperienced players need to work on first, and put more effort into.

As a person who has done more than his share of training and teaching, with both people and animals, I understand how difficult it must be to teach people the finer points of ANYTHING online.  Air combat is definatly a tough one, even one on one in a classroom environment.

One of the toughest parts here is the need to make concepts/information available to the student at the right point.  Timing when to release the next idea to a student is very important.  Too early/too much info can cause some serious confusion or cause/allow a student to "skip ahead" without learning the foundation skills, while at the same time withholding info/concepts from a student who is ready for the next step can also be detrimental.  It can cause boredom or frustration, making it harder to continue learning, or even causing the student to leave and try to progress on his own.

How do you meter at what rate to distribute info and concepts to a new student in an online environment?  In my own real-world experience's I "read" my "students" and can allow them to progress at a rate that suits them individually.  When a student has trouble learning a new idea I can repeat it, or even adjust my techniques to make sure they learn the new idea or behavior in the manner I desire.

That has to be tough in your situation, especially when many of your "students" are silent observers reading your write-ups and disecting your diagrams/films with no added dialog from an actual trainer.

I think you guys are on the right track.  The information you offer is very good/important.  You can't force people to learn, especially when they are participating in a leisure activity.  You guys have set up a good way to distribute information to those who would like to learn it though!



MtnMan

[Badboy]

Originally posted by mtnman
it appears as though at the beginning of the manuever the red plane is in back of the blue plane, and that at the end it still appears to be.

Hi mtnman.

It isn't supposed to appear that way. If you take another look at the starting position you might notice from the perspective that the Red aircraft is closer to you than the Blue aircraft and is just in front of the Blue pilot's 3-9 line, and facing the same way.  Not easy to see in a two dimensional diagram, but it actually places the Red pilot at a positional disadvantage. Red pilot reverses his turn into the Blue pilot and into the rolling scissors, ending in the position shown. At that point I think you can see that the Red pilot is in a position known as the high six, the control position and the fight is almost over... Red will now be employing his gunnery skills, and Blue will be executing a guns defence.  

The transition from a position of advantage, to one of advantage is admittedly subtle, but that is why so many new pilots lose the advantage without understanding why. My hope was that the diagram and the film would clarify that.

I just think this diagram would show the goal/ideal scenario more clearly had the blue plane been clearly losing because of the flightpath it took.  Otherwise it seems to show one plane flying the maneuver better, but with no positive gain or outcome...

You should be able to see that the Blue pilot started with a slight positional advantage, and that Red's flight path reversed the situation until at the end Red is behind and slightly above the Blue pilot ready to shoot.

Obviously we won't always win the maneuver, but...

Somebody almost always wins, it is the sort of fight that once you are in it, it is very difficult to disengage without conceding a shot. Normally when you get into a rolling scissors, somebody is going die, if you grasp the concept and practice it until you can apply it with a degree of skill, you will find that you can win with it most of the time, because you would be surprised how many people fly it badly

Anyway, I hope you got something from it.

Badboy

[SlapShot]

Geeesh ... I was gonna say ... "Don't run with them"

[mtnman]

Hi Badboy-

I guess I'm just having trouble with the perspective at the beginning.  It looks to me like the Red plane is actually behind the 3-9 of the Blue.  I agree however that the Red plane, although looking to me like it is behind the Blue, is definately going to have trouble getting a shot solution on the Blue plane and is likely in danger of over-shooting.  Especially since its lift vector is away from the Blue plane.

It is obvious though that by the end of the manuever it has greatly improved its position.  So I guess it looks to me like the beginning starts with a questionable advantage, transitioning to a clear advantage.  In my mind it doesn't show an advantage lost, so much as an advantage "tweaked" into a much more solid advantage.

Looking at it from your perspective, I can see where you are coming from.  With extra explanation and coupled with the film, I can see where a lot of value can be derived from it.  As a stand-alone diagram, without the film and dialog, I still feel that the subtleness is awful hard for a beginner to the concept/manuever to grasp.  I more blunt approach, showing a more clear advantage lost / gained would seem easier for a beginner to comprehend.

I use this manuever most often when I'm starting from a disadvantaged position.  Slower, with a faster con on my six.  I start with the Barrel roll, but if he tries to follow, it transitions into the Rolling Scissors.  9 times out of 10 I end up on his six in a few turns, with him trying to slam on the brakes but too late to avoid over-shooting.  I generally prefer to convince my opponent that I'm going to run first, so he WEPS to catch me.  His extra speed makes things easier on me unless he's smart and refuses to play my game.

I also use it more as I see in your diagram, when I'm advantaged but my opponent begins the Barrel Roll.  It obviously works that way too, but I guess I don't normally consider it as offensive even though I'm using it that way.  I guess in that situation I see it more as if I'm simply defeating his attempt at the manuever, rather than me winning it.  I know it sounds odd.

MtnMan