Results of chaning from Ki-84 to Spitfire Mk XIV...

[Engine]

After flying the 84, very little feels as agile and light. The Spit VIII may be comparable, but at low speeds it has much more of a wallowing feeling than the 84. What can ya do?

[Karnak]

Engine,

True, but at least the Mossie, an anything but light fighter, doesn't fight me on everything I want to do with it.

[Engine]

I do agree with you that the Spit14 likes to fight its pilot. It's not the most enjoyable plane to fly.

[EagleDNY]

Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
i thinks the spits are the most well balenced plane in the game any spit should own a ki84 except for a spit14 maybe.

The Ki-84 is a good match for the Spitfire.  If you can use the flaps, it turns just as well as a Spit, and even without them it is pretty close.  At Mil Power, it is faster than every Spit but the XIV down low, and just as fast as a Spit XVI with WEP on.  It might not be as fast up high, but those flaps let you pull some interesting maneuvers and stay stable at angles and speeds that have a lot of planes shuddering at the edge of control.  

Plus you get great range, the ability to carry 2 250Kg Bombs, or 2 drop tanks that will keep you in the air for a LONG time.  The views are great, and you get 2 x 20mm + 2 x 12.7mm guns with plenty of ammo.  It'll take more damage than most Japanese rides, which isn't saying much, but at least you don't feel like you are flying in a paper airplane.  

Spits are nice to fly, but an experienced Ki-84 stick will give you all you want.

EagleDNY
$.02

[dedalos]

Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
i thinks the spits are the most well balenced plane in the game any spit should own a ki84 except for a spit14 maybe.

Ahhhhh, nop. If you know how to fly th Ki, spities are just targets

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by dedalos
Ahhhhh, nop. If you know how to fly th Ki, spities are just targets

Not that I'm an expert in either type, but I agree with Dedalos.  We've had a number of Spit v. Ki84 matches in AvA over the past couple of years, often attended by some very competent people, and the 84 clearly dominates (regardless of which spits are involved, btw).

- oldman

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Engine
I do agree with you that the Spit14 likes to fight its pilot. It's not the most enjoyable plane to fly.

Actually, it's not the airplane fighting the pilot, it's the pilot fighting the airplane.

It is important to come to that basic understanding.

Airplanes are inanimate. You animate them within the capability of the flight model. When you try to make it do something outside of its flight model, the aircraft will not comply. Basically, this says that the pilot is not as well versed on the aircraft as he needs to be, and thus will not be able to extract all the aircraft has to offer. You are flying the plane to its weakness, not its strength.

If you find that the aircraft is dipping a wing at high AoA and G loading, that is a flight model marker. You can fly right up to the marker, but not beyond without penalty. Learn the markers, practice at the markers until they become second nature.

That is the mark of the high-skill pilot. He can fly to the edge, stay there indefinitely and avoid the mistakes that cost you control loss just long enough to get you killed. He knows his markers, and doesn't push beyond them. He also knows your markers... Keep this in mind gents.

My regards,

Widewing

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Karnak
He didn't order them not to do a loop.  He ordered them not to do a loop (split S?) with less than x altitude.  I'd have to pull my books down to find the quote, but I don't have time right now.

Quoting F/L Don Healey, 17 Squadron regarding Ginger's 14 incident.

"One aspect you always had to bear in mind with the XIV that no flying surface trimming could allow for it's considerable weight-it tipped the scales at 8475 lbs when fueled and armed, which made it over 2000 lbs heavier then the Mk VIII.  Therefore extra height had to be allowed for when rolling and looping as it tended to 'wash out' when being flown this way.

Ginger Lacey graphically showed us all just how serious a problem this was when he attempted to do a loop from what he thought was an adequate starting height over Madura one afternoon.  At the bottom of the loop he cleared the ground by barely 4 feet and uppon recovering back at the field Lacey looked ten years older then when he took off.  He immediately gathered us around and told us in no uncertain terms not to attempt a similar manoeuver with anything less then 4000 feet reading on the altimeter."

[Guppy35]

Something to keep in mind with the Griffon Spits was the need for constant trimming, and that at slow speeds that wasn't enough.

Again quoting Don Healey, who flew both VIIIs and XIVs in the Far East.

"We were told to open the throttle very slowly at the start of our take off with full opposite rudder applied to offset the five blade prop, which was driven by the Griffon in the opposite direction to the Merlin.  This took some getting used to!  Even with full ailerion, elevator and rudder, this brute of a fighter still took off slightly sideway!  However once you picked up flying speed, and trimmed the rudder and elevator, this torque pull became bearable."

So you are talking about a Spit over a ton heavier then the Spit VIII, that has much more torque then the Merlin Spits, and really not enough flying surfaces to handle that power.  (Note that the Spit 22 and 24 had an even larger tail surface to deal with this and the engine was the same Griffon.)

The XIV was a much harder beast to fly.  As with most fighter development, the quest for power and speed cost some of the flying characteristics of previous versions.  Most Spit drivers claim the Spit V was the best flying Spit and that after that, the Spits lost some of that balance.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by dedalos
Ahhhhh, nop. If you know how to fly th Ki, spities are just targets

Thankfully most of the 84 drivers don't know how to fly it to the edge.

I love getting into fights with 84s in the old 38G and most of the time I can take em.  And I suck, which doesn't say much for the Ki drivers

[BaldEagl]

It sounds like you grabbed the wrong Spit as a replacement for the Ki-84.

The Spit XIV has big torque that rotates in the opposite direction of all of the other Spits, the Ki-84 and most of the plane set.  Because of this, it will feel like the plane is fighting all of your normal manouvers (the one's you've learned instinctually) until you learn to reverse them.  While most planes turn best to the left the XIV turns best to the right and like the Typhoon and Tempest, if you get the XIV too slow that big torque can either flat spin or snap-roll you very quickly.  Thats what makes it both unique among the Spits and also makes it a powerhouse up high.

Any of the V, VIII or IX would have been a more suitable replacement for the Ki.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Gianlupo
...

That and the ludicrously low speed the flaps pop out! (EDIT: pop out at? <--- need some english language enlightment!!)

Technically correct version:

"...the ludicrously low speed at which the flaps pop out." We're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition, so "...flaps pop out at" wouldn't pass a grammar test. At the same time, the correct version just sounds stiff and awkward, so it's probably better to reword the sentence to leave the preposition out entirely. For example, "That and how the flaps pop out at such a ludicrously slow speed!"

In conversational english, your sentence would fly just fine ending with the "at."



[/end grammarian mode]

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
It sounds like you grabbed the wrong Spit as a replacement for the Ki-84.

The Spit XIV has big torque that rotates in the opposite direction of all of the other Spits, the Ki-84 and most of the plane set.  Because of this, it will feel like the plane is fighting all of your normal manouvers (the one's you've learned instinctually) until you learn to reverse them.  While most planes turn best to the left the XIV turns best to the right and like the Typhoon and Tempest, if you get the XIV too slow that big torque can either flat spin or snap-roll you very quickly.  Thats what makes it both unique among the Spits and also makes it a powerhouse up high.

Any of the V, VIII or IX would have been a more suitable replacement for the Ki.

Thats what so wrong with it.

During handling trials of the XIV the test pilot said
 - Had to be forced into a spin, would not do it voluntary -

Sounds as though the torque is too much, but whatever it is, something is up with it.

Everything I've read about it basically comes down to -
Taxiing and landing is a little harder (longer nose, more torque and it's the opposite direction to what they'd be used to).

Slightly heavier controls, but still more manoeverable than an VIII at ANY alt.

As well handling as any Spit.

Less warning of an accelerated stall.

Should turn with a IX to stbd, slightly inside it to port.

Should outdive ALL spits in game.

Something is just up with our XIV.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
It sounds like you grabbed the wrong Spit as a replacement for the Ki-84.

The Spit XIV has big torque that rotates in the opposite direction of all of the other Spits, the Ki-84 and most of the plane set.  Because of this, it will feel like the plane is fighting all of your normal manouvers (the one's you've learned instinctually) until you learn to reverse them.  While most planes turn best to the left the XIV turns best to the right and like the Typhoon and Tempest, if you get the XIV too slow that big torque can either flat spin or snap-roll you very quickly.  Thats what makes it both unique among the Spits and also makes it a powerhouse up high.

Any of the V, VIII or IX would have been a more suitable replacement for the Ki.

I wasn't looking for a Spitfire to replace the Ki-84.  If I were looking for that I'd have grabbed a Spit VIII or Spit XVI.

I was just commenting on how stunning a change it is going from a Ki-84 to a Spitfire Mk XIV, and this is coming from a guy to transitions between the Ki-84 and Mosquito Mk VI with no issues.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Karnak
I wasn't looking for a Spitfire to replace the Ki-84.  If I were looking for that I'd have grabbed a Spit VIII or Spit XVI.

I was just commenting on how stunning a change it is going from a Ki-84 to a Spitfire Mk XIV, and this is coming from a guy to transitions between the Ki-84 and Mosquito Mk VI with no issues.

Well if that's the point of your post then you're right but you are comparing apples to oranges.  In that case I'd argue that transitioning from a Lancaster to a A6M2 is an even more dramatic change, or even from a Ki-84 to a FW190A8 but what's the point?  They aren't even in the same ballpark.

From your first post it sounded more like you wanted to try something similar to a Ki-84, decided a Spit might fit the bill, then thought... Ooh... perked Spit! until you found out that the XIV wasn't at all what you had expected.

I'm not trying to ridicule you or anything but that's just how I read your first post.

Now that we've got that cleared up lets discuss the differences between the Lanc and the A6M2...