Author Topic: Advice on my first long gun purchase (Read 1667 times)

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2007, 10:42:39 AM »

As an entry level, you can't go wrong with .270, .308, or 30-06. I prefer a Winchester Model 70 (out of production but you can still buy them) or a Ruger Model 77 bolt action. Simple, reliable, and accurate. Any of those three rounds will be plenty versatile. I prefer the 30 caliber rifles for the variety of bullets available. The 168 grain bullet is good all around, but you can go lighter, maybe 130 grain, for varmints, and up to 200 grain for mule deer or even moose or elk, IF you get close.

Also, these days Savage makes a couple of nice rifles, their Model 110 is a very good piece. Mossberg has their 4x4 bolt action, it too is a very nice and very accurate rifle. They are both a little more affordable than the Winchester or the Ruger, but still VERY solid, and accurate as well.

Get a scope, either 3x9x50 or 4x12x50. A Simmons will be more than good enough for an entry level rifle/scope combination. If you spend too much money on a scope, you'll not have enough money left over for a good case (I like a hard case AND a soft case, I use the hard case to store the rifle, but the soft case makes it easier to transport for hunting) and plenty of ammunition. You can get a Leupold or a Nikon, but you'll spend a lot more for it, enough to hurt your budget. Don't get me wrong, they are GREAT scopes, but they are twice what a Simmons costs.

I recently bought a Winchester Model 70 300 Winchester Magnum with a 26" barrel and a Simmons 3x9x40 scope, on http://www.gunbroker.com, for a total of $425 including shipping and transfer fee. It was new in the box. I have found that the 300 Winchester Magnum is about the best all around commercially available round there is. However, it is not really an entry level round, the recoil and muzzle blast are a bit much for the uninitiated. I've owned several 300 Winchester Magnum rifles, and never once have I had a barrel warp, I haven't even shot one out. And I shoot often, with very powerful handloaded ammunition.

You'll find that a GOOD quality wood stock will add well over $100 (at the very least) to the cost of a new rifle, IF you can find one. I love a good walnut stock as well as anyone, but I carry and shoot my rifles often, and I understand the advantages of synthetic stocks. For a rifle you'll SHOOT, a matte finish with a synthetic stock is really the way to go.

If you can find a friendly dealer who will handle the transfer for you for a decent fee, you can go to http://www.gunbroker.com or http://www.auctionarms.com and get a good deal, so long as you know how to work an auction, like you would on ebay. I've bought several nice weapons that way, the local shop does the transfers for a flat $40.

As to reloading, I couldn't afford to shoot my toys if I didn't reload, but it is NOT a hobby for everyone. The average cost of an RCBS reloading kit is over $200 these days, although a "Partner" kit is plenty good at $160 or so plus dies and a shell holder. Dies and a shell holder will cost around $45. Powder is usually $18 for a 1 pound can, primers are $15 for a brick of 1000, and bullets are around $18 for a box of 100. It is the best way to get accurate powerful ammunition you can afford.

derelict · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2007, 11:04:42 AM »

I've hunted Whitetail in PA, TN, VA and MD since 1972. I've used a Remington .222, Winchester Model 94 30-30, .32 Special (Model 94), .44 magnum (both pistol and Model 94 long gun), .303 British and Model 70 Winchester .270 (pre-64). (edit) Forgot about the vaious shotguns with slugs, but they don't count

)

Hands down best rifle out of any of them, in all the various terrains and weather conditions was the .270. Absolutely flat shooting, very little recoil, reasonably priced ammo, and light enough not to kill your arms carrying it all day. It was my Grandfather's gun, so you can imagine how many rounds that barrel has put out. Yet every year at the beginning of the season I go to sight it in and it takes one round only. Right in the bulls-eyes, 100 yards, everytime. If you ever get into handloading or know someone who does, make yourself some 80 grain rounds. Fantastic varmit gun

flakbait · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2007, 07:25:53 PM »

Ruger M77 prices are about typical for a bolt-gun, and if you do go Ruger you don't need to buy scope bases. The Ruger has 'em built-in. Their Hawkeye goes for about $750 in just about any caliber you could dream of: 25/06, 270, 7mm-08, 7mm Rem Mag, 30/06. All are suitable for deer, and a 7mm Mag or 30/06 is a dandy round for a critter up to elk-size. They also have an M77 MkII available with all sorts of options, including a Cooper-style scout rifle (Frontier model). http://www.ruger-firearms.com

Browning's A-Bolt is a great rifle, can be had with a BOSS (barrel harmonic tuner) to increase accuracy, and has about as many options as Ruger. Average price for a synthetic-stocked Stalker model are $7-900 depending on what options/caliber you want. http://www.browning.com

Another option is a Weatherby Vanguard. Retail is $5-700 depending on what options you want, and whether or not you get one in a Weatherby Magnum caliber. On the upside, you'll definitely get a VERY accurate rifle for a very good price. Should you decide on bagging a Weatherby Mag caliber be warned: they do kick, and a box of 20 rounds can go for very steep prices! We're talking $40+ instead of $20-something for a 270 or 308. http://www.weatherby.com

As far as Winchester's M70... If you can find one used in good condition, it'll probably be a good buy. I have yet to hear anything pleasant about the last batch from New Haven just before they closed down. Apparently the fit and finish was more typical of a Chinese knock-off than a Winchester product.

Marlin does make a pair of dandy lever-guns (1895 and 336) and a nice line of bolt-guns. I haven't heard much about their bolt guns, but what I have heard was on the positive-side. Lever actions are bar-none some of the best to be had. Should you go the lever-gun route, the 1895 will be far too much gun for deer; 45-70 is an anti-tank/bear/buffalo cartridge. The 336 is in 30-30 Win; much less damaging to meat and still capable of printing nice 100 yard groups. http://www.marlin.com

If you want a scope on your rifle (you'll need one on bolt guns) plan on spending 50% of the rifle's cost on optics. Leupold probably makes the best rifle scopes on Earth, right beside Zeiss. They've got models ranging from $300 to well over $1k and they are definitely worth it. Burris also make quality scopes, but with smaller numbers in their price tags. Bushnell is one I'd avoid, because they tend to run neck and neck with Tasco in the quality department. I can't speak for everyone, it's simply my experience and what I've heard from others. Simmons has a limited selection of good optics available, same goes for Nikon.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]

Leslie · « **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2007, 10:55:14 PM »

Shooter's Bible is great for viewing the different firearms and current prices.
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=17-0883172860-0

The NRA has a couple good magazines you have a choice of when you become a member. American Rifleman and American Hunter. A very good hunting magazine is Deer and Deer Hunting.

Midway has an awesome catalog about the size of a telephone book. Lots of neat things to peruse in there. Graf and Sons and Shotgun News are good catalogs. I bought a Leupold scope from Graf and Sons and saved about $100 off local prices.

For fun, get a sub to Sportsman's Guide, an entertaining and not so serious catalog that has some unusual items in it. The descriptions of the various items are humorous and bring a chuckle.

There are good deer rifles made by all manufacturers. My deer rig is a Remington 700 ADL in .270 with a Leupold Vari-X III 4.5 to 14 power scope. I bought the rifle used from a shooting range shop and had to have the trigger pull re-adjusted (it was too light.) Once that was fixed it is a fine rifle for hunting and target shooting.

It's a good idea when going shopping for a rifle to have a knowledgeable friend go with you who can offer suggestions, or maybe they know someone who has a rifle for sale that might be what you're looking for.

Les

BiGBMAW · « **Reply #19 on:** May 06, 2007, 11:35:18 PM »

there is only 1 rifle to get....

FN-FAL 7.62x51mm

very very accurate..hunts very well..well for any game ..well if its bigger then a prairy dog..(if you want to have somthn left of it)

Very very rugged..wont fail you..great for zombie attacks as well

Coshy · « **Reply #20 on:** May 07, 2007, 01:42:26 AM »

Hmm, those pesky zombies are something to consider!

The more I read, here and other places, the more I'm leaning to either .308 or .270, with the .270 slightly in the lead.

I'm also narrowing down my list of manufacturers to Remington or Savage. The thought of owning an M1 is appealing, but I dont know that it would be something I'd want to lug around all day, and for my first one, I want something that is new.

I've also opened up to synthetic stocks. They seem to be a bit less expensive, and I wont screw up a synthetic stock if it rains or I drop it or bang it against a tree or rock.

Right now I'm looking at the Remington 700 BDL, 798 and 770 series as well as the Savage 11FCNS and 11FXP3.

The remington 798 is based on the Model 98 Mauser bolt action, but I would have to purchase the scope seperately.

The Remington 770, from what I've been able to understand, is basically a 700 with a scope. According to the Remington website, "It features the same great action and barrel as our Model 710 (based on the Model 700)...".

The Savage 11FCNS and FXP3 are the same gun, one without sights, one with a scope (FXP3).

Would I be better off purchasing a premounted gun & scope combo, or is it better to purchase the gun and then have the scope mounted?

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments, while I may not reply to each comment, be sure they are being read and considered.

Leslie · « **Reply #21 on:** May 07, 2007, 02:57:26 AM »

For hunting all you really need is a fixed 4x scope, but if you want to target shoot sometimes the variable magnification is desirable and can substitute as a spotter scope. Quality optics are important for low light hunting conditions, and that normally means buying a higher quality scope than what comes in a combo special. Much depends on your budget and how good your eyesight is. I recommend buying a rifle separate from the scope and then getting a high quality hunting scope with a heavy duplex recticle so you can see the crosshairs in low light conditions. The gunsmith can mount the scope using high quality steel rings and a one-piece base mount.

Avoid those aluminum see-through scope mounts (so you can see iron sights in addition to the scope.) They are virtually useless and will lose center frequently.

Les

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #22 on:** May 07, 2007, 02:58:06 AM »

If you buy a Remington, get a REAL Model 700, and NOT one of the subvariants. The 700 is a nice piece, some of those subvariants are real cheap crap.

My last two Winchesters came with scopes already mounted, and were zeroed with less than a box of ammunition. Both had a Simmons 3x9x40, and both shot MOA or better at 100 yards out of the box, with store bought ammo. I took them out of the box, cleaned them, oiled them lightly, carried them to the range, and had them ready to hunt with in well under a 1/2 hour. Hard to beat, one was under $350, the other was under $450.

If you like your ears, and you intend to hunt, avoid all the muzzle brakes and "tuning systems". Outside of really big magnums, a muzzle brake is nothing more than abuse for your ears. And the muzzle brake/tuning systems are just needless complexity combined with excess noise. Less than 1 in 100 shooters I know of actually tuned one of those and made any progress. Some of the gunsmith suppliers like Midway and Brownell's offer a piece that replaces them to eliminate the noise.

Dago · « **Reply #23 on:** May 07, 2007, 04:47:03 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by BiGBMAW
there is only 1 rifle to get....

FN-FAL 7.62x51mm

very very accurate..hunts very well..well for any game ..well if its bigger then a prairy dog..(if you want to have somthn left of it)

Very very rugged..wont fail you..great for zombie attacks as well

A lot of people would disagree. The FAL is a decent weapon, but not the best at anything.

Odee · « **Reply #24 on:** May 07, 2007, 04:47:33 AM »

Biggest determiner for a long gun, outside of shoulder dislocation, is what terrain types you will be hunting in.

Brush: Most any of the .30 caliber will work fine. I have a 3/4" steel plate with a dandy crater in it on my desk as a paper weight. The crater was made by a 30-30 150gr JSP at 75 yards. The back side of this steel paper weight is bowed out about 1/8'th inch. 30-06 just made the crater a little deeper.

Open ground: 270 on up to 308 works fine. Personal preference is inherited 270 bolt action with double set triggers.
30-30 has a bit of a drop off at long range, while the 270 and 30-06 are nearly comparable in ballistics performance, and the 308 is slightly better than those two.

Caliber prices vary widely, but the .308 seems to price right in there with 30-30 and 30-06 if you do not plan on reloading.

Xargos · « **Reply #25 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:40:57 AM »

Virgil, do you limit the amount of rounds you fire within a 15 min period of time to keep the barrel from getting too hot? I have heard of some competition shooters doing that to extend the life of their rifles

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm

Quote

Bigger magnum hunting type rounds will shoot from 1500-3000 accurate rounds. But the bigger 30-378 Weatherby types won't do as well, being closer to the 1500 round figure.

That above site really wasn't the info I was looking for, but it's close.

I've owned two 300 Winchester Magnums, one ended up getting a warped barrel the other I ended up having to sell because of medical bills. I spoke to some hunting friends and three of them had had similar problems with warping, while the rest said they had not seen any evidence of that happening. I have seen people make some amazing hunting shots with a 300 Winchester Magnum.

Allot of people I know swear by the .270, though I never seemed to have much luck with them, but then again I never really spent much time with one.

Toad · « **Reply #26 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:43:31 AM »

If you're looking for a new gun, probably the best cost/benefit package right now is the Savage.

Cabela's routinely sells a Savage in a synthetic stock with a Simmons 3x9x40 on it for about $460, all the standard calibers. Most other rifles will cost you $550+ just for the rifle and scope, rings and bases on for a similar Simmons set up will easily go over $100 even on sale. Savage presently has a very good reputation for out of the box accuracy with their bedding system and adjustable Accutrigger. Not the fanciest of rifles but they sure seem to be shooters.

I've been shooting a .270 for years on everything from prairie dogs to large mule deer and am very, very satisfied with this caliber. Very accurate, modest recoil, ammo is easily available and relatively cheap.

If you think you maybe recoil sensitive, go with a .243. It's also capable of taking everything up to and including deer with no problems. (Had a friend drop a standing antelope at 453 yards with one well placed shot.) Another very accurate round, minimal recoil and easy/cheap ammo availability.

Enjoy!

Sting138 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:51:45 AM »

30-06 for one reason. LOTS OF BULLET CHOICES! If you aint afraid of a lil recoil then this would be your best bet.

Suave · « **Reply #28 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:55:48 AM »

My deer and elk rifle is a Ruger No 1 in 270 winchester. Economical, ergonomical, very accurate after some tweaking with the front stock. And it's a beautiful rifle. Almost like an off the shelf Dakota Model 10.

Suave · « **Reply #29 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:26:49 AM »

Honestly, for your first hunting rifle just get a $200 used rifle in reasonable condition. By reasonable I mean that there's not something very wrong with it that affects accuracy. For any hunting rifle to be unacceptably innacurate, something would have to be very wrong with it. Don't split hairs over the caliber much, any of the deer and elk calibers are quite sufficient.

Then start saving for a nicer rifle, something formal and classy. Something that you'll want to be your hunting rifle for the rest of your life. Good hunting rifles become family heirlooms and tend to stay in the family for generations.

I'd say pretty much the same thing about hunting knifes, first just use a good solid Buck knife. And then when you know more about what you want out of a knife. Save up for a nice looking high quality knife that you would want to hang on your belt even when you're 70 and toothless.