Author Topic: Raptor 109 search: Failed  (Read 610 times)

Offline EsX_Raptor

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Raptor 109 search: Failed
« on: May 09, 2007, 09:13:02 AM »
I have been trying to find any, any articles related to the Bf 109s for Aces High II, any of them, and I just cant find them anywhere. Ive been doing this since the  Raptor Undecided...  thread, with no victories. I would greatly appreciate if anyone here posts any links to 109 articles, I really would :)

With articles, I mean something (writeups?) that would give any tips or tactics on how to correctly fly the great Messerschmitt 109 birds ;)

Thanks!

EDIT: I always find writeups for every other plane >=[
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 09:17:41 AM by EsX_Raptor »

Offline The Fugitive

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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2007, 09:27:06 AM »
search for Luftwaffe, BF109, or BF-109 will return lots of results.

Offline DweebFire

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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 03:45:38 PM »
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/bf-109-thread-2974.html

http://frhewww.physik.uni-freiburg.de/~jaensch/109/index.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_199912/ai_n8870616

http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1154

gonzo's charts

Flying any aircraft (except maybe the Spitfires, La-7's though it does take a long time to fully master any aicraft) is going to take some time. Do some research on the aircraft and learn what makes it tick. I'm still new at Aces High too, but i've tried flight sims before. The 109 really isn't an exception to this rule. Flaps are an integral part of flying the a/c but first you have to learn how to energy fight. I've heard from many before that if you are attempting to BnZ (Boom and Zoom) and your wing slats pop out, you are pulling too hard to be BnZ'ing. Train your SA (Situational Awareness) first since it seems like you need x-ray vision to see out of a 109.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 03:47:49 PM by DweebFire »

Offline LancerVT

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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 07:50:19 PM »
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=205143&referrerid=17911

http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=193518&referrerid=17911

http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=183939&referrerid=17911

http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=179563&referrerid=17911

energy fighting is a must in a 109.

109F4 turns like crazy, in the class of the spitfire.

IMHO the latewar 109s (G14 K4) fit my style of fighting the best and are better suited to fight against the late war rides most seen the MA (La7, spit16, N1k). If you know how to energy fight in a 109 you will do well. You just need to practice your gunnery if you fly with the MK108 30mm cannon.
SAPP

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Offline The Fugitive

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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2007, 09:51:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DweebFire
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm

gonzo's charts

 


dweebfire, these are the only two links of your that are good. The other links, while nice reading, have nothing to do with AH2 and so can not really be used to learn about the 109 IN AH2

That is where people get confused, real world and AH world are two different things and not very often do they aline. Thats where people get "well how come this plane does that, it didn't in the war!"

Stick to using game info to compare and learn game planes.

Offline wetrat

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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 11:38:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LancerVT
energy fighting is a must in a 109. [/B]
not really... depends on your grasp of ACM, 30mm gunnery, and ability to make people overshoot. I hardly ever E fight (pretty much only in horde-wars, which I tend to avoid), and seem to have done fairly well over the years. I prefer flying low and suckering people into rolling scissors by giving them my 6. The 109's are VERY stable at low speeds (between 120-170mph), and have enough power to keep you afloat, so forcing overshoots and snapshots is a breeze.


FOCUS: Raptor, in regards to your question.... if memory serves, Urchin made a thread in here regarding flying the 109's years ago. Probably in 2002 or 2003. It's probably mostly about the 109-G10, which is pretty much the same as today's K4. Search for that (I'm hungry, don't feel like looking for it right now), it was a pretty good writeup. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll go fishing for it.

The most important thing when you're trying to master the 109's is to not use the crutch of E fighting/roping/bnzing/running. That's fine some of the time, but if you want to get good, you need to get slow and dirty. Ditch the training wheels... dump your flaps, and start turning with the Spitfairies on the deck :aok


edit: what the hell, I'll make a thread with some of the stuff I do all the time in 109's. Might get around to it tonight... if not, some time this week.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 11:44:11 PM by wetrat »
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Offline Xasthur

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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 03:52:33 AM »
Here is the first part of my write up:

I will write more about flying and fighting as soon as I can.

109 K4

 
The MK 108
The MK 108 cannon in the K4 is devastating, just 1 or two rounds is enough to break your average fighter in half. It is a 'fat' and 'slow' round though, so spraying it from 1000 yards like it's .50 cal will get you nowhere.


Convergence:
I set my 108 convergence to 200 yards. Obviously, you must hold your fire until you are within this range. This 200 yrd setting takes into account 'bullet drop' as the round comes out of the barrel going up and arcs back down to hit its target.

Because this round is big and slow, you will need to 'lead' with it more.... ie: shoot where your target is going to be, not where it is.

This often means that you need to fire when the target is below the canopy line, so your Situational Awareness needs to be good. The 109's canopy will soon force this upon you, with its limited view.

I set the MG convergence to 300 or 400. Seeing as they are cowl mounted their convergence is not much of an issue.  Important: Keep in mind that the MG rounds and the 30mm rounds will behave very, very differently so some people say that it is better to just fire your cannon so that you know if the big rounds are hitting or not. I use the MG rounds to hit targets at 400 - 800 yards in order to keep them manuevering and thus allowing me to run them down and get within range for a 30mm attack.

This method is very useful for taking down buffs and with practice (do note that it does take practice) you'll be able to take out a flight of 24s with 15 rounds with relative ease.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 03:54:58 AM by Xasthur »
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Offline Xasthur

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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 05:29:58 AM »
Pt II

Flying and Fighting:

The 109K4 will out-climb almost everything and it is the fastest 'non-perk' climber. Thus, try to do as much of your fighting as you can 'nose-up', you will out-perform most aircraft this way.

Compression is an issue for novices in the 109 but I have found that it will often work in the favour of the 109 pilot. Lots of people will try to sucker you into a stupid, lazy dive thinking that you will just compress and plough into the ground. Throttle, rudder and elevator trim manipulation is very important. Your elevator trim is set to the ‘k’ as a default and if you hold this ‘k’ key down it will manually crank your elevator up (this was the solution for real 109 pilots also). This will allow you pull out of a suicide dive even if you black-out, as your elevators stay up. Beware, you will need to re-set your trim to normal either with the ‘i’ key (the reverse of the ‘k’ key) or by re-enabling Combat Trim by pressing Ctrl + X. Most of the time people having pulled this dive move on you will simply go back into a lazy climb to try and retain their ‘E’. This is where your superior climb comes in, simply go back to full throttle, re-set trim and engage WEP and you will catch them promptly.

The 109K4 is also a good turner, you will be able to hang with almost any plane in a turn fight provided it is not flown by an exceptional pilot. N1ks and A6Ms are best avoided in regard to turn-fights… as are early model Spitfires, just use your climb and speed in this case. It is possible to turn with the likes of a Spit VIII given proper use of flaps (flaps are important in turn fighting in the 109). Be careful of getting into this situation with Spits though, generally a pilot of equal or greater skill will beat you. If you’re good you can get away with it, but for now just be wary and keep an escape route open.

The 109 also slows down very well. This is great for warding off La7s and planes with E advantages. Use hard rudder, flaps if possible and a few tight rolls to force the over-shoot. If you enemy is stupid enough to try and slow down with you, let them blow past, WEP on and run them down.

If you find a 190 or a P-51D you will find yourself at large advantage because you can out-turn and out-run these aircraft at some altitudes (check Soda’s site for these details).


Notes:
This is my experience with the 109. I am no great stick and don't hold myself to be anything more than fairly experienced with a certain aircraft.

My in-game ID is Archaius and I usually fly for the Bishops with the Screaming Devils, if you'd like to wing with me in 109s I'd be glad to fly with you. (I do live in Australia though, so if you're American we might not line-up time schedule wise)

People far superior with the 109 that you might like to chase up with this are ParIn and Creton, to name a couple.

Good luck and feel free to PM me or reply here with any other questions you may have.

:aok
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Offline EsX_Raptor

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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2007, 08:21:16 AM »
Awesome Archaius!

Is that just a part of a writeup you have made? If it is, would you please tell me where can I find it? :D And if it isn\'t, then I\'ve got to say it is really good! I didn\'t notice until a while ago that those 30mm cannons were that powerful, I mean, I thought they could take down opponents with as few as 5 rounds or so, but with one? I even tried it (though it was kind of difficult at first) and shot a single (a single!) HE bullet on a wandering P-51 blowing it up right away! Now I know why I lost my wings so quickly

But I have a question for you: Why set the range of the cannon to 200D instead of 650D? Wouldn\'t it be much easies the further away it is to prevent some lead problems? You mentioned something like \'bullet drop\'(goes up then down) but I don\'t know if that\'s even more effective as just blasting it fast and hard on someone\'s tail.

About the limited view, it is true. Good SA is needed in order to properly fly a 109 and I\'m practicing it already ;)

About dropping flaps in the turn fights (I\'ve never tried it so I\'m a total dweeb at it) doesn\'t it make the 109 stall real quick? I\'ve tried it already but I drop down flaps all the way down but don\'t know if that\'s a proper thing to do ever since it\'s very hard to accomplish.

E fighting? I\'m so confused x__X many say the best way is to get slow, drop flaps even gear to be successful and others say that the best is to get high and no less than 250 mph   ???      I think I\'ll have to do a combination of both then x[
Although I liked the idea of doing my turns nose high and forcing overshoots using hard rudder, flaps and tight rolls, then using WEP to run down that bogie ;)


lol wetrat Spitfairies xD ... really gave me a laugh =] btw, I\'ll go ahead and try to find that topic Urchin made that long ago ;)


Awesome links guys! I\'m chewing them all down!! lol (except for those historic ones -__-) ... No seriously, I appreaciate every one of you all\'s great help and keep it comin\'!



- Dalgurak

Offline Xasthur

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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2007, 09:25:24 AM »
That was all that I have written up. I wrote it in response to your post and posted it in here, so those two parts were it. I could and may do a 'How to turn fight in the 109' thing, if my schedule allows me to do so.

To answer your questions on convergence:

Setting the convergence to 650 means that effectively means that your round will still be 'high' at roughly 325 yards (which is outside the range i've been able to effectively hit with) the round should come back down and be at the same point it came out of your gun at 650.

Given the behaviour of the round at these distances, I would say it's not worth your while trying this sort of distance shot. Having the bullet go high while you're trying to shoot at 200 will be a nuisance too.

I've spoken to others who set their 262 30mm cannons to 600 yards. This is a different story though, as the 262 is usually going a lot faster to begin with and it is harder to get that close (200) to your targets when you're moving so quickly.

What you can do is go into Offline mode and use the 'target command' this is '.target distance'  eg '.target 200' ( I think that is correct)

This will bring up a target that is always situated north and will stay the specified distance away from your aircraft. That way you can see where your bullets hit with different convergence settings.

As for flaps, the 109 will stall but its stall characteristics are fairly docile compared to other aircraft (such as the 190 which snap-roll at the first sign of a stall)

Turning with WEP on with flaps down is not advised, the extra torque can get a bit violent. You can do it, and I do with success but just be gentle.

The 109 is very stable at low speeds (landing for example) and with flaps and the power to get back up to speed, the 109 can be deadly in a stall fight.


I had a great 1 v 1 with Woozle this evening in my 109K and his Spit16 and I got only one chance to take a shot on him and my 30mm missed (13mm hit the wing-root but alas, no critical damage) from then on I could not sufficiently out-climb him or out-turn him and he got an aileron of mine and from then on there was no gaining the advantage without extending a large amount.

I was at 75% fuel at the start of the fight and I think Woozle took 50% or something to find me. In the end I ran him out of fuel and got I the kill when he ditched lol. In this example the 109 has a good fuel capacity and will out-run and out-climb a Spit-16.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2007, 09:39:12 AM »
Regarding the comment about K4 being the best non-perked climber, I'd like to also add:

The Spit14 will outclimb the K4 easily but that's perked so just considering unperked spits, if I recall the spit16 outclimbs it as well. The 16 breaks 3500fpm without WEP at 10K, it's a freaking monster (spit8 not far behind 16 in terms of climb/speed)

EDIT: Okay I checked Gonzo's page, seems the G14 is VERY close to the K-4 in WEP climb, and even climbs marginally beter between 5 and 9k or so, then climbs worse above 10k.

Spit8/16 are VERY close, but have different climb chart curves, and are slightly behind the 109G14/K4. Close enough to be contenders, though. It also turns out the Spit14 is very close (they trade off) below 10k, essentially even with the K4, then drops a little then above 20k takes the lead and keeps it. Hope this adds to my original post!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 10:04:31 AM by Krusty »

Offline Xasthur

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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2007, 10:00:48 AM »
I've been underestimating the Spit8 then.

The Spit16 could not catch my K4 under 10k earlier today.

I suspect he was using WEP, as it's not like he was trying to save fuel for the flight home.

It seemed to be a dead-heat or very little advantage one way or the other because I tried to spiral-climb him and was unable to extend vertically.
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2007, 10:16:57 AM »
Do the 109 and spit have opposing torque directions?
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2007, 10:19:04 AM »
I think only on the spit14:confused:

Offline Xasthur

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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2007, 12:36:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Do the 109 and spit have opposing torque directions?


I was under the impression that the Typhoon and Tempest are the only Brit aircraft with different torque directions.
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