Author Topic: 249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else  (Read 570 times)

Offline sparow

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« on: May 22, 2007, 05:54:14 PM »
Hi chaps,

After a few days of reflection about the latest issues raised within our community, I thought that I should try to share with you all 249 Sqn position about many of the things debated.

First of all, I would like to state that these are our views and they are worth what they're worth. They only apply to us and we don't wish to antagonize anyone by expressing them. That said, let's go to what matters..

Our squadron is mostly composed by mature men, in his fourties - ages go from 70 to 17, to be true - that share one common interest in WW2 history, aerial combat and general warfare. We found, back in 1996 (or was it 1995?) a place where we could have all that plus the enjoyment of doing it as a group of likeminded persons.

Those were the days of Warbirds, and 249 Sqn joined up with 13 Sqn and 617 Sqn forming Tangmere Wing, soon joined by a 249's offspring, 601 Sqn.
Maybe some of you remember, but I assure you, that running operations on Squad Nights was something worth seeing...Then, we all split. After a while, part of 249 arrived to Aces High. Aces High I. Combat Theatre.

As you all may imagine, it was a very good time for us, as players and as a team. CT was appealing, having good attendance, good pilots and good fights. A good planeset and many innovations, strategical, tactical and graphical, captivated us immediatly.

Also the community interested us and kept us interested. Those flying on our side and those flying against us. So, as long as numbers dwindled - in our squadron and in CT, later renamed AvA - we stood firmly attached to AH and AvA. We still find them a good place to be and with good people in it. But we regret much the continual frictions within such a small community.

AvA regular users are a tiny fraction of AH users, a niche inside a niche, a species that only feel at home in a very controlled environment. And reacts very intensely at first sign of change...

We, in 249 Sqn, for many reasons, like beeing originally formed by UK members, etc, we allways preferred to fly british aircraft or, alternatively, american airplanes. We have assumed, since the beginning, that we would not use german, italian or japanese aircraft regularly, unless strictly mandatory or essential, like in scenarios. We have chosen, also since the beginning of our formation, to fight for the Allied part and, in "chess" politics, for Green or Bishops.

This is why it is very rare for any of you to find us flying anything else that british aircraft, for as obsolete they may be at any point of a ToD. It is also very rare to find us flying as Rooks or Knights in MA, or Axis in AvA.

We, in 249, believe that this combat sim, a game in many aspects, is the closest way we will ever be of aerial combat in WW2 time frame. We all know that this is not a perfect simulation but we do our best to be the best closest thing. We have the notion that we "fly" cartoon planes and there's no real danger - thank God, the greatest risk we have is to get a sprung wrist - so, although we are allways trying to compare ourselves to our heroic aces of past times, we are humble enough to accept that we are only staging an online hommage to their skills and courage.

For that reason, we follow a unwritten code of conduct and we try to uphold to their exemple at all times, inside and outside of the arenas.

We, in 249 Sqn, believe in teamwork. That is why you will never hear us complaining about entering in fights in a numerical disavantage. We also feel entitled to be, ocasionally, in numerical advantage. We do not fight as a horde, we fight as a team, as a squadron. We also find a bit unfair when a fight is a 3vs1, but we never complain about that. It is historically acceptable. This is why you will find us flying in pairs or more.

We, in 249 Sqn, believe that every shot is acceptable. Knowing the inherent dangers of head-on shots, we try to avoid them by default. This is something that we leave to each player to decide, in face of the needs of the moment, to his best judgement. It is historically acceptable. That is why you will see us using these shots occasionally.

We, in 249 Sqn, believe that operations and combat may occur at any height, having no problem at all in climbing to the best altitude possible to assure us the best tactical position in a fight. We also do not hesitate to engage in combat at low or medium level. It all depends and we find perfectly acceptable to try to fight in the best terms possible. It is historically and technically correct. That is why you will always find us trying to be above our opponents.

We, in 249 Sqn, believe in airfield supression for tactical reasons. We do not "vulch". We have no pleasure at all in the very few occasions we do it. Strafing and bombing airfields was and is a reality. We do not find "vulching" a field interesting, so we avoid to do it, except if we are forced to do it. In AvA, we do not even attack airfields. Although strafing was historically acceptable, we don't consider it appropriate. That is why you will never see any of us vulching in AvA.

We, in 249 Sqn, consider unacceptable shooting down "pilots" in his parachutes. We do not do that and we don't like to see anyone do that. It is historically true, unacceptable even by the war standards of the time but we find to be, in this combat sim, although innofensive, very disrespectfull. This is why you will never see one of us doing this, and if you do, please tell me.

We, in 249 Sqn, believe in respect and politeness, although we assume that we are among, mostly, adults, and taunting or mess jokes, even a more mature conversation may occur, but always within limits of mutual respect. We like banter, we like the taunting, we do not find acceptable when it starts to get out of hand, close and personal. There, we draw a line. That's why we have fun on 200 but without beeing rude.

Finally, I would like to state that we have the utmost respect for every player, individually or as part of a squadron, and for every squadron in AH and everywhere else.

Our historically related squadrons are about to be replaced by squads named after popsicles and comic books... Allied or Axis, here in AvA everyone is necessary and indispensable. But we must be willing to accept our differences and learn to share this common space. Lets stop complaining and let's start playing more.

Thank you AvA staff, you have been doing an excellent job.

Sparrow
249 Sqn RAF "Gold Coast"
Sparow
249 Sqn RAF "Gold Coast"
Consistently beeing shot down since Tour 33 (MA) and Tour 8  (CT/AvA)

Visit us at http://249sqn.wordpress.com/

Offline Guppy35

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2007, 06:27:30 PM »
Sounds reasonable.

Here's your historical counterparts towards the tail end of the B of B.

The tall guy under the spinner is Thomas "Ginger" Neil, who also flew Hurris at Malta and then took command of 41 Squadron on Spit Vs and helped them transition to my favorite the Spit XII.

Ginger has written a few books about his experiences

Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline KONG1

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2007, 07:44:19 PM »
So everybody agrees on everything. Do you make these beliefs a prerequisite to acceptance or do members go through some form of mind control boot camp.

Just curious.

And let me apologize ahead of time: Sorry mate, If I see you in a chute I'm gonna shoot.:D
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Offline Grits

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2007, 07:47:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by KONG1
And let me apologize ahead of time: Sorry mate, If I see you in a chute I'm gonna shoot.:D


Same here. All meatbombs must DIE!!

Offline E25280

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2007, 08:08:59 PM »
Well, the .ef command is sometimes disabled in the AvA (why, I have no idea).  So, if I shoot your chute, it is because I am trying to do you a favor. By sending you to the tower, you can up a plane instead of dangle there for who knows how long.

I also humbly request that if anyone sees me dangling in a chute, please shoot me.  I consider it to be very helpful.  :aok
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Offline daddog

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2007, 11:35:14 PM »
Quote
We, in 249 Sqn, believe in respect and politeness, although we assume that we are among, mostly, adults, and taunting or mess jokes, even a more mature conversation may occur, but always within limits of mutual respect. We like banter, we like the taunting, we do not find acceptable when it starts to get out of hand, close and personal. There, we draw a line. That's why we have fun on 200 but without beeing rude.
So complaining about H/O's and telling someone they suck is 'not' rude in your book? You remember a little incident with sondog a month or two back?

Great post Sparrow, but frankly I have seen a little disparity between your words above and your actions.

Maybe it was just an off night for you. I have had those myself. I hope you and your squad can hold yourselves to the above ideals.
Noses in the wind since 1997
332nd Flying Mongrels
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storch

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2007, 05:59:20 AM »
hey sparow, you forgot to add that you guys like running and hiding in ack.

Offline sparow

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2007, 04:16:57 PM »
Hello gents,

First of thank you for your interest. Guppy, that is the picture I chose for my 249 website never ending project. Well picked! Kong, we are ex-abductees and we all have an in-built inplant. That will keep our opinions very similar and behaviour very standard. Also no instructions on how to fly 109's. About making my return to tower more expedite, I understand, but you usually never leave nothing to shoot at after your pass. Grits and E25280, will do, as required. Storch, you must decide: we are runners, ack-huggers or alt-monkeys? Make up your mind man!

Daddog:

Not only I remember it, I remember it vividly...Correct me if I'm wrong, it was in "Sink the Tirpitz" map, on the gulf, you were operating from the North bank, I was operating from the South bank.

I didn't knew sondog was your son - now it's ovious, because of the callsigns - and that he his a kid. I was not having a bad night. Yes, I admit and I regret to have "spoken" so harshly to your kid. One of the few times I was harsh toward someone here and it left me quite unpleased with myself.

If you remember that incident so well as I do, you will probably remember that we were having a very good fight. You both were teaming very well, although a bit outmanouevered.

As the fighting went on, we got closer and closer to your base. You kept re-upping and started, quite naturally and acceptably, to use the field for cover every time one of you was shot down and the other was left alone at some temporary tactical disavantage. The attempts to fight over water were countered many times by tactical retreats for ack everytime I was able to get on a planes six and started pursuit...

The the head-on became the only manouever executed for sondog to get you out of trouble. When he extended, I could fight with you normally. Then, another head-on pass...It started to annoy me...

I don't remember when, or by whom, I got hit in my oil and in my wing, losing half of it...I had a few kills in my belt and I thought I could give it a try and land them, or blow up doing it. I then disingaged and returned to my base hardly holding the plane straight and level, trailing smoke.

I saw that little dot chase me all the way, put the hammer to the firewall, wepped, flew at 50 feet over the water and the dot was now clearly visible and gaining on me. The airfield was in sight. I believe that I tried to contact the pilot on 200. To no effect. He wanted that kill. It was a kill of rage. At 800 yards, 600 yards, 400 yards, airfield ack firing allready and he had to have me. And he did. The kill message told me he was sondong.

That was what made say what I said. Because he had resorted sistematically to a poor - although legitimate - technical manouever, having been sistematically shot down, used excessivelly the airfield for cover and finally, had obtained a - valid - kill in pure spite, I felt angry and called to his attention that that kill was of no value at all, and his qualities regarding combat manouevering were low. Shouldn't have used the word "suck" it's quite rude, I admit. I am not British or American, as you all must know, and I may not instantly avoid swearing or realise how offensive a word can be. Apart from that word, I believe you will agree that the rest of the things I said were not offensive. They were hard to hear, but not offensive. It was a very, very, harsh criticism.

For the "s" word, I apologise him. For beeing hot-headed, I apologise you.

I also remember that you told me that in private channel and, still hot tempered, but shocked with the fact of having beeing so harsh on a kid, I replied something stupid...For that, I apologise too. He will grow up and will deslike shooting down a crippled plane as much as we do. That doesn't mean that we all do that one time or another, but every time it happens to me, I don't feel any pleasure and a bit disappointed with myself.

I admit here publicaly, that I shot one bailed pilot in his chute once. I still regret it deeply. It's only a game, I know, but it made feel very bad with myself. It's the principle...

Even last wednesday I almost shot down Okklok - he was saved by my bad gunnery - when he had half wing shot off...I only saw that when I zoomed him after the overshot! He would think good things of me after that! His wingtip had been cut off by another pilot, not my work...

One last thing Daddog: I keep no hartfeelings, I would like you and sondog did the same if possible. Straightened up and talked over, hope everything is sorted out between ourselves. Are we ok? I hope so.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain myself.

Sparrow
249 Sqn RAF "Gold Coast"
Sparow
249 Sqn RAF "Gold Coast"
Consistently beeing shot down since Tour 33 (MA) and Tour 8  (CT/AvA)

Visit us at http://249sqn.wordpress.com/

Offline daddog

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2007, 07:58:01 PM »
All forgiven. I appreciate the apology.

Except that...
Quote
The airfield was in sight. I believe that I tried to contact the pilot on 200. To no effect. He wanted that kill. It was a kill of rage. At 800 yards, 600 yards, 400 yards, airfield ack firing allready and he had to have me. And he did. The kill message told me he was sondong.


He was not in any kind of rage. He does not shoot others down in "pure spite" as you put it. If you met him and know him as I do and others in the community (those that met him at the con) you would realize that he is not someone to fly in a "rage". He does not have that kind of temper. He was simply out chasing the guy that nailed him several times over the field. Besides there was no one else to chase at that time. He is very level headed and easy going.

What is cold to you might be room temperature to me. We were just trying to get alt to have a fighting chance (average pilots here) and had to use the ack directly over the base to get alt IMHO. If we ventured out without alt we were dead in short order. We see some things differently about that night, but I am not going to split hairs over all of it.

Also it was around that time that I allowed him to to tune to 200. If he had seen your msg on 200 he might have let you go. Then again, maybe not. I don't tell him how to fly. My guess is at that time he still was not allowed to tune to 200 and did not see your msg.

As for the head ons, I will do one every time if I am trying to clear the 6 of a squadie. I guess he was doing the same. You said above in your initial post HO were acceptable depending on the situation so I am not sure why they would annoy you as you said they did.

My best to you and your squad. I hope your next encounter with sondog will be a more positive experience for the both of you.
Noses in the wind since 1997
332nd Flying Mongrels
daddog
Knowing for Sure

Offline Dichotomy

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2007, 08:26:47 PM »
Sparrow,

Nice post.  

Bottome line, in my opinion, is everybody does things in game and out from time to time that they instantly or on reflection regret.  It takes a real man to apologize in public and a real one to accept that apology and move forward from there.  

To me AVA is and should be the benchmark for behavior in other arenas which, othere than squad nights or planned missions, that is where you'll find me.  

I find the regulars  to generally be a cut way above the types that pervade the MA.

As far as  sondog goes and I'll step back from my squadron affiliation here I think he is one exceptionally fine young man.  In fact I'll go as far as to say he's a better kid than mine and I think mine is exceptional as far as maturity and manners.  

Misunderstandings, momentary loss of reason, etc.., I say you drop an apology on 200 and go on.  If the guy you've wronged accepts it you've potentially made a future ally.  If he doesn't well then you've got an insight as to his character.

And always keep in mind we're talking cartoon airplanes here.  It's supposed to be fun at least 90% of the time.  If it wasn't I'd find a new hobby.

JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline Slash27

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2007, 10:33:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by daddog
If you met him and know him as I do and others in the community (those that met him at the con) you would realize that he is not someone to fly in a "rage". He does not have that kind of temper.
 


  Its a trick Sparow! I went for a second fajita at the con dinner and Sondog stabbed me in the hand with a fork.



Be afraid, be very afraid:noid

Offline Dichotomy

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2007, 12:01:31 AM »
hey now.. Fajitas are serious business :mad:

:lol
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Offline daddog

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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2007, 01:08:31 PM »
That is because I warned him about you and then told him to Slash. :D
Noses in the wind since 1997
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Offline sparow

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249 Sqn Statement: about life, AvA and all else
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2007, 02:42:42 PM »
Daddog,

Thank you for understanding my points and clarifying this last point.
Sorry, pre-conceived ideas and misunderstanding generally has these effects: generate wrong conclusions and reactions.

You both are above the average pilots and work very well together, you're very hard to beat as a team. Glad to know that he is such a balanced young man.

I'll be looking forward for meeting you again.

My best regards,

Sparrow
249 Sqn RAF "Gold Coast"
Sparow
249 Sqn RAF "Gold Coast"
Consistently beeing shot down since Tour 33 (MA) and Tour 8  (CT/AvA)

Visit us at http://249sqn.wordpress.com/