Author Topic: UK Slips Further Toward Police State  (Read 1366 times)

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2007, 05:07:45 PM »
Quote
Personally I blame the parents, America, the education system and Tony Blair


SO Britain's juvenile gangs are America's fault? Not sure how my country is responsible for your juvenile gangs.....  :rolleyes:
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15781
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2007, 06:26:01 PM »
Are you really that stupid to not be able to spot a troll like that?

Jeez... didnt even need any bait, you just jumped straight onto the boat. :lol
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

storch

  • Guest
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2007, 06:42:23 PM »

Offline Sundowner

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1005
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2007, 08:52:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by x0847Marine
In the US there is case law for "consensual contact" already

Police are allowed to randomly contact people without PC and ask if s/he can talk to you, if you say yes... you have legally agreed to a consensual contact. During which you are free to leave at any time, and anything you say can be used against you in court.

Anything garnered from that contact can be used to form probable cause for a detention. The police do not have to advise you of your right to say "no", and Miranda doesn't apply until the officer suspects you of a crime.

If an officer randomly approaches you and says "Hey dude, can I talk to you?... where ya going?..to a jihad?, got any Iraqi WMDs in that backpack??" type of stuff, you are 100% legally allowed to say "I don't want to talk to you, go have intercourse with yourself"

The police can even legally nag you, "Come on, lets talk?.. what are you hiding huh? if you've done nothing wrong".. one you start defending yourself in conversation, you've agreed to a consensual contact.


Under this new UK legislation you have no right to refuse questions without penalty.

From the article:

"If suspects failed to stop or refused to answer questions, they could be charged with a crime and fined, The Sunday Times said. Police already have the power to stop and search people but have no right to ask them their identity and movements."

Isn't it funny that anyone stopped to be questioned is already referred to as "suspects" by The Sunday Times?--even if no crime was thought to have taken place.

I suppose under the new law EVERYONE would be considered "suspects".

Regards,
Sun
Freedom implies risk. Less freedom implies more risk.

Offline lasersailor184

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8938
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2007, 11:14:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gpwurzel
Good points Laz, I have no idea what the answer is, unfortunately, neither do our "illustrious" leaders.


Wurzel


The simple answer is to use your guns and over throw the government...



Oh, wait...
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2007, 11:38:07 PM »
Quote
Under this new UK legislation


Just to make it clear, there is no new legislation about this yet. What we have is some ministers in the Blair government floating a trial balloon to see what public reaction is, with legislation planned for late this year, or early next. Of course, Blair will be gone by then, so will many of the ministers he appointed. Brown, who is taking over in a few weeks, hasn't voiced an opinion on the plans, and the rest of the cabinet seems to be split on the issue.

I'd be very surprised if any proposal on these lines becomes law. Far more likely is there will be a requirement for reasonable suspicion before the police can demand details.

Don't forget, Blair is very big on talk, very short on action, and has been throughout his term as prime minister. Considering many of the ideas he came up with 10 years ago when he became prime minister have long since disappeared, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for something he's proposed a few weeks before he retires.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2007, 02:43:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruv119
Personally I agree with giving the police more powers.

 end up with light sentences and cushy jails.

 


 let me guess, you have never done jail time?

Offline Bruv119

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15678
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2007, 03:21:05 AM »
You've done time in the UK ink?

I'm sure the US jails are what my idea of a jail should be like.

Dou you get playstations, pool time and gym rooms?
The Few ***
F.P.H

Offline sgt203

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2007, 03:35:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by x0847Marine
In the US there is case law for "consensual contact" already

Police are allowed to randomly contact people without PC and ask if s/he can talk to you, if you say yes... you have legally agreed to a consensual contact. During which you are free to leave at any time, and anything you say can be used against you in court.

Anything garnered from that contact can be used to form probable cause for a detention. The police do not have to advise you of your right to say "no", and Miranda doesn't apply until the officer suspects you of a crime.

If an officer randomly approaches you and says "Hey dude, can I talk to you?... where ya going?..to a jihad?, got any Iraqi WMDs in that backpack??" type of stuff, you are 100% legally allowed to say "I don't want to talk to you, go have intercourse with yourself"

The police can even legally nag you, "Come on, lets talk?.. what are you hiding huh? if you've done nothing wrong".. one you start defending yourself in conversation, you've agreed to a consensual contact.


Marine you are 100% correct ( with the exception of Miranda.. Only applies when a person is in custody you can suspect or even know they are involved in crime as long as they are not in custody or functional equivelent of arrest,then no miranda is required)..

Consensual encounter is the way to get to see whats in that backpack by using the old "mind if I have a look"... Also needs no probable cause nor reasonable suspicion a simple "go ahead" works just fine :aok

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15781
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2007, 04:02:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruv119
You've done time in the UK ink?


IIRC Ink had done 25 years in prison by the time he was 21...
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline Bruv119

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15678
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2007, 04:11:40 AM »
I suppose he beat Chuck Norris at arm wrestling when he was there too.
The Few ***
F.P.H

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13958
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2007, 09:53:38 AM »
You might want to rethink the Miranda statement there. Any time you are questioning a suspect and are narrowed down to that individual as a participant in a crime, asking questions related to the offense, you must mirandize or lose the answers for court. Miranda has nothing to do with custody or not. You do not need to be under arrest to be accorded Miranda warning and protection. Once someone is a suspect, in custody or not, and you want to question them about the crime or crimes in question you must give the Miranda warning.




Quote
Originally posted by sgt203
Marine you are 100% correct ( with the exception of Miranda.. Only applies when a person is in custody you can suspect or even know they are involved in crime as long as they are not in custody or functional equivelent of arrest,then no miranda is required)..

Consensual encounter is the way to get to see whats in that backpack by using the old "mind if I have a look"... Also needs no probable cause nor reasonable suspicion a simple "go ahead" works just fine :aok
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline sgt203

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2007, 10:41:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
You might want to rethink the Miranda statement there. Any time you are questioning a suspect and are narrowed down to that individual as a participant in a crime, asking questions related to the offense, you must mirandize or lose the answers for court. Miranda has nothing to do with custody or not. You do not need to be under arrest to be accorded Miranda warning and protection. Once someone is a suspect, in custody or not, and you want to question them about the crime or crimes in question you must give the Miranda warning.


Maverick,

This is a very common misconception by police officers. The deciding factor in Miranda is CUSTODY... No other situation other than CUSTODY, commonly considered by courts to be "ARREST OR FUNCTIONAL EQUIVELENT OF ARREST" requires Miranda Warnings. Having said that, to be on the safe side it may be best to give Miranda Warnings in situations you are unsure if they may be needed, however, in doing so you offer the suspect the chance to "lawyer up" when it is not needed to do so.

If your state courts are relying on MIRANDA which is a US Supreme Court Case in deciding when you have to give "Miranda Warnings" then custody is the defining issue. However if they are using your State Constitution in deciding these cases they have the right to provide MORE PROTECTION to their citizens than required by the US Constitution.

The US Constitution sets the MINIMUM RIGHTS provided to all citizens, however states always have the right to provide even greater protections to the citizens of that particular state.

I will paste this below which I found doing a search on Miranda vs Arizona. If you so desire I can provide you with numerous Appelant and Supreme Court cases in which Miranda was decided in Pennsylvania, which has adopted the federal standard in such cases.

Hope this helps you out. Dont give the suspects a chance to go silent when it is not necessary.

Miranda vs. Arizona Court Case

Miranda v. Arizona
384 U.S. 436, 86 S.Ct. 1602 (1966)

Ernesto Miranda, a rape suspect, was arrested and taken to the police station. After two hours of questioning, he signed a written confession and was subsequently found guilty. Miranda appealed his conviction on the grounds that prior to confessing, he had not been informed of his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination or his Sixth Amendment right to counsel.

The Supreme Court overturned Miranda’s conviction, finding that the coercive nature of detention in a police station necessitates certain safeguards in order to ensure that suspects do not naively waive their rights. The ruling held that when law enforcement officers take a suspect into custody with the intention of conducting an interrogation, they must inform the suspect of certain fundamental conditions:

The suspect has the right to remain silent.


Anything the suspect says can be used against him/her in court.


The suspect has the right to an attorney.


If the suspect cannot afford an attorney one will be provided at no charge.
 
The Court imposed these limitations upon law enforcement officers for the purpose of ensuring that criminal suspects do not waive constitutional rights as a result of not knowing how to properly exercise them. This ruling had broad ramifications for all police officers, who have since been required to issue Miranda warnings to all suspects that are arrested and taken into custody.

What you should know about your Miranda Rights:

We are all aware of the contents of the Miranda warning. It is recited on police shows everyday and can be repeated verbatim by most Americans, though often without a thorough understanding of its significance. In short, the Miranda warning is an acknowledgement of the criminal suspect’s right to take what is always the best course of action for any arrestee: say nothing until you’ve spoken with a lawyer.

Still, the Miranda warning is frequently misunderstood as encompassing all lawful detentions by police. It should be noted that Miranda does not apply under the following circumstances:

Questions asked at a crime scene


Any statements volunteered by the suspect at any time


Questioning of individuals for fact-finding purposes


Questioning during an investigatory stop
These exceptions are significant in that they encompass many situations in which police acquire important evidence from suspects who are under no legal obligation to answer questions. In many cases, police officers acquire probable cause to arrest a suspect due to his/her own answers to police questions at the crime scene. Thus the following should be remembered with regards to Miranda warnings:

If police have arrested you and plan to ask you questions about a crime, they must read you a Miranda warning


While this process is often referred to as “reading you your rights” police will only inform you of your right against self-incrimination and your right to an attorney


Other than identifying yourself, you are under no obligation to disclose information to the police at any time


The right against self-incrimination excludes statements made voluntarily; Anything you say to a police officer at any time can be used against you


There is no reason to disclose information to the police about your involvement in a crime prior to speaking with a lawyer

<<<>>
« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 10:43:47 PM by sgt203 »

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13958
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2007, 10:49:00 AM »
Sgtboring,

I'm familiar with Miranda. The Miranda ruling came from an arrest from my Department well before I got on.

The explanation I gave you was not my interpretation, it was from the Department Legal Advisor. Once the investigation has narrowed to the point where you are now asking questions of a SUSPECT of the crime in question you had better Mirandize them, in custody or not. In other words you may not have probable cause to affect an arrest at that time but you have reasonable suspicion that the individual you are talking to is a suspect in the crime you are investigating. Situations where the reasonable suspicion has not been gained are not protected (ie. fact finding or talking to people who are not suspected of involvement).

Read what I posted before again. Note that the circumstances are simple. You are questioning a suspect about their involvement in a crime. They do not have to be under arrest in order to be questioned as you well know.

Miranda is not necessary in any custody situation UNLESS you will be asking questions of an investigatory purpose to determine more information to be used in prosecution. It is not necessary to read the Miranda rights just because someone is under arrest as long as you will not be asking any questions related to the offense. Identity questions (name, address etc.) are not protected as you indicated.

I made numerous arrests for on-sight activity and didn't need to ask questions other than identity since I witnessed the incident in questions. Miranda was not necessary for the arrest then since the suspect was not being questioned.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 10:54:06 AM by Maverick »
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline L'EMMERDEUR

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
      • http://http://www.bushslastday.com/
UK Slips Further Toward Police State
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2007, 12:58:30 PM »
NWA had it right in '88.